Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Close, but no cigar. Think third age...

[Galadriel55]

Eowyn and Faramir?

Both of us are of white, - Faramir is from the White City, and he calls Eowyn "the White Lady of Rohan"
Loved ones rejected us, - Denethor preferred Boromir, and Theoden forbade Eowyn to come with him
Some may say it's bad,
But we say it's good.

For we moved on,
We fell in love with each other
We've proven that darkness could be escaped - together they were saved by Aragorn
We reached the light when the Eagles came. - Eowyn "woke up" when the Eagle came to announce victory

[Urwen]

Yup.

[Galadriel55]

Thanks!

All right, here's mine, but I don't have Legate's skill with poetry. ;)

People pass me by
Most notice me not
Only the chosen ones know -
They were chosen by fate.

My secret in my name
But no one thinks of it
Until one without understanding
Saves the day.

When my power is revealed
I reveal another's also.

[Urwen]

Maybe that bread root Mim had?

[Galadriel55]

Maybe that bread root Mim had?

Good guess, but no. You're somewhat on the right track, though.

[Mithalwen]

Is it Athelas? Sorry about missing my go earlier - it slipped my mind..

[Galadriel55]

Is it Athelas?

Yes it is!

[Mithalwen]

Yay! I will try and get something posted tonightthoughb it may not be so clever...

[Mithalwen]

OK well I did write more but I think it makes it too easy so see how you get on with just the first stanza:

Golden haired and golden hearted
Though I bore a different name
Strange my fate but less exalted
Was I than those who fared the same

[Galadriel55]

:confused:

Out of all the golden-haired people that I thought of, only two kinda fit the lines: Eowyn and myself divided by 55. :p

Golden haired and golden hearted - well, they have golden hair, and I suppose, golden hearts...
Though I bore a different name - Dernhelm for Eowyn, or Nerwen for Galadriel
Strange my fate - they are a bit unusual
but less exalted
Was I than those who fared the same - Eowyn's only title was "the King's niece" when she went to war, unlike Theoden (King), Eomer (3rd Marshal), and the leaders of the eoreds. You can even say that she was a plain solider and not even a commander of the lowest rank. As for Galadriel - she was the youngest daughter of the youngest sons of Finwe when the Noldor left Valinor for ME.

[Mithalwen]

Good reasoning but I think you need to find more blondes.... :D Only smiling because it now seems to me so obvious that even one wrong guess seems a triumph... but your reasoning shows me I haven't done a duff riddle if that makes any sense.

[Urwen]

Idril? Almost everything fits.

[Mithalwen]

Yes it is Idril. Known as Celebrindal (silver foot) and (I have always felt) rather neglected compared to Luthien and Arwen. One of my favourite characters - as wise and resourceful as she was noble and lovely.

[Urwen]

So, it's my turn? Well, I have a riddle.

See how you'll deal with this:

I counselled one whose heart was great
though later I grew lonely.
Control or mastery I sought not
but understanding only.


Wise and patient was I named;
learned in my father's lore.
All about me passions flamed
yet ever I forbore

[Mithalwen]

Sounds rather like Faramir - learned and wise and patient, who didn't seek the ring.

[Urwen]

Nope. It's a minor character. And this character is not from Lotr.

[Mithalwen]

OK - thought it was too soon after the last time...and he wasn't lonely for long! somethingis nagging inthe back of my mind,,, I 'll get back to you if it emerges

[Galadriel55]

Sounds a bit like Gwindor from the Narn...

[Urwen]

No. Earlier than that...way earlier. The book is Sil

[Mithalwen]

Felagund? THough I wouldn't call him minor...

[Galadriel55]

Finarfin? Told the Noldor to stay in Valinor, was "lonely" as the only descendant of Finwe left in Aman, didn't participate in any kinslaying...

Edit: xed with Mith

[Urwen]

Nope and nope. I won't give it to you till your answer is correct.

Finarfin is pretty close, though...

[Galadriel55]

Fingolfin, then? With all of Feanor's quarrels he put up with and all that... But he wasn't exactly lonely.

[Urwen]

Even closer, though not quite. And before you say Feanor, let me tell you: it's female.

[Galadriel55]

Out of all these Noldorian Ladies I think Nerdanel fits most.

I don't think the answer's right, though, and I have to keep thinking, but I want to tell you that I think it's one neat riddle, Urwen!

[Mithalwen]

I think it certainly fits her very well - I think you are right Galadriel and a clever choice if so..

[Urwen]

Out of all these Noldorian Ladies I think Nerdanel fits most.

I don't think the answer's right, though, and I have to keep thinking, but I want to tell you that I think it's one neat riddle, Urwen!

BINGO.

[Galadriel55]

Thank you! Again, really nice riddle, Urwen!

Now for something that does not sound half as elegant but at least rhymes...

Made by the first
In the beginning of the First.
We housed one who never quenched his thirst.

We were three.
We hid Three.
Only one came free.

And as we stood
A rare person would
Challenge us: such is our mood.

Yet such challenges were made;
Fate shaped them, or they shaped fate.
From memmory they will not fade.

[Galadriel55]

Why do I feel like a neekerbreeker?...

This equals to, as much as I'm annoyed with myself for saying it (and you are probably annoyed with me as well), *BUMP*. :smokin:

[Pitchwife]

Hmm, tough one. In the beginning of the First could mean early in the First Age, and then Three of course brings the Silmaril to mind, but then We were three / We hid Three makes me think more of the three elven Rings and their keepers, and I'm totally clueless about the rest.

[Galadriel55]

On very very very good track there with your thoughts, Pitch. Something you said is right on, but I won't tell you what. :p

...and I'm totally clueless about the rest.

"The rest" (ie the last 2 stanzas) should belong in the poetry thread. I don't even know why I made it part of the riddle, as it hardly contains any clues. But the riddle just seemed incomplete without it. :cool:

[Galadriel55]

It seems to me that I have to be the neekerbreeker again for someone to take another guess. :rolleyes:

[Galadriel55]

...as well as... well, you know it. :smokin::Merisu:

You people discourage me. :p

[Flame of Udûn]

A wild stab in the dark here but it makes me think of Thangorodrim

[Galadriel55]

A wild stab in the dark here but it makes me think of Thangorodrim

The wild stab hit it's mark! Please proceed. :)

[Galadriel55]

It's been two months since the last post.

Does someone want to post a riddle? If not then I have an idea in mind, but I wouldn't like being the riddler twice in a row. :(

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think you will have to take one for the team.

I have no riddle right now, so in order to keep this thread alive you better post your idea.

[Galadriel55]

By your leave. ;)



I lived in a happy place;
It was old, but fair of face.
Me, my sister, and my brother
Lived in peril, but weren't uncovered.

We saw nothing, yet we know -
Me, my sister, white as snow,
And my brother, older still.
Thus we lived and faired until

War was won but something lost.
Many people felt the cost.
Brethren do not need to lie -
We knew we will have to die.

My dear brother then stood forth
And sent a legate to the north,
To survive beyond all fears
And bear tribute to these years.

Wonders sometimes can betide -
By my brother's legate's side
Appeared last of my fair kin
(Although me she's never seen).

When we knew it was the day
For our time to pass away
With us another life was taken.
No more here my kin shall waken.




Urgh, one long idea. :/

[Galadriel55]

:Merisu::Merisu::Merisu: .........................bump? Please?

[Pitchwife]

I'd love to oblige, but I've rarely felt so clueless. The first two stanzas vaguely seem to suggest something like Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel (esp. sister white as snow), or maybe even the Children of Húrin, but neither fits the rest of the riddle. The legate business reminds me of Borondir and Eorl, but where are the brother(s) and sister(s) in that story? Blergh. I fear this one will have to wait for its own Legate...

[Galadriel55]

To clear some of the "legate" business - it's poetic license. It should be more like "kingsman". Don't read much into it; the important part it to the north (hint hint wink wink :p).

I'm afraid all your guesses went wide, Pitch. Don't read literally into it, that's the first thing. I'll point out the importand lines if you want.

[Nerwen]

The flower elanor? (The "brother" and "sister" being mallorn and niphredil.)

[Galadriel55]

The flower elanor? (The "brother" and "sister" being mallorn and niphredil.)

Bingo! :D

Can't wait for your riddle!

[Nerwen]

Looks like you had to wait quite a while.... I'll come up with something shortly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Looks like you had to wait quite a while.... I'll come up with something shortly.

Bump, O Wisest "Shortly" Of The Noldor :Merisu:

[Nerwen]

Bump, O Wisest "Shortly" Of The Noldor :Merisu:

Argh. I keep forgetting about this thread!

[Galadriel55]

Argh. I keep forgetting about this thread!

You sure are. ;)

[Aerandir]

I do believe it's been 10 days and I'll attempt a horrible riddle :D

This is probably the easiest riddle ever.


The King of bridle
Though unarmed and naked
He bears weapon and armour
Long and loud are his breaths
Cold, unforgiving death
yet still standing is the King

[Nerwen]

Sure, go ahead, Aerandir– I just haven't had time to even check the site the last couple of weeks. Sorry, all!:(

Also, welcome to the Downs!

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps not as easy as you think!:)

I think it's Shadowfax, the best horse of his time, who does not flee from the Witch King. Also, I am fond of the idea of thinking of horse and rider as someone without arms carrying/bearing someone with arms...

[Aerandir]

You're on the right track, but it's not a horse.

Here's a hint.
Dunland
Yule(December)


maybe that's too much of a hint but I realize not everyone studies the books religiously.

[Galadriel55]

The King of bridle - king of Rohan, perhaps?
Though unarmed and naked - went outside Hornburg to kill Dunlendings without armour or weapon
He bears weapon and armour - his fists are good enough. Also, people said that "if he bore no weapon no weapon would bite on him", which is a kind of protection
Long and loud are his breaths - blowing the famed horn?
Cold, unforgiving death - winter winter winter...
yet still standing is the King - he died but still kept standing



I think I love Helm's story even more than Eorl's.

[Aerandir]

Correct, your turn! I guess the hint I gave was too much, but without it, it would be pretty hard.

[Galadriel55]

Correct, your turn! I guess the hint I gave was too much, but without it, it would be pretty hard.

If you just said Yule/December/winter, I wouldn't have thought of it. But there are only that many events than involve Dunlendings. :)


Alright, here it goes. Hopefully it's at least a bit tricksy and not complete rubbish:


Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

[Urwen]

Frodo, Celebrian or Eowyn.

If it's not one of those three, I'll eat my legs.....

[Nerwen]

I bet it isn't a person at all...

[Galadriel55]

Frodo, Celebrian or Eowyn.

If it's not one of those three, I'll eat my legs.....

No. No. No. Would you like a wheelchair? ;)

[Urwen]

Well, fourth, sixth and seventh verse point towards Saruman, but the rest don't fit, so.....

Was our subject from First, Second or Third Age?

[Galadriel55]

Third Age. Would you like a hint?

It's not Saruman.

[Urwen]

No, not hint, you would deny it to me anyway.

Is it Bilbo?

[Galadriel55]

No, not hint, you would deny it to me anyway.

Would I offer if I'm not planning to give?

It's not Bilbo.


The subject is not a major one like Bilbo and Saruman, but it's not too trivial and obscure either. Not something ridiculously obscure like Adamanta Took. More like minor-but-not-obscure, like, say, the Red Arrow. (and obviously it's neither of those)

Also, if it helps, the different styles of stanzas are almost two separate storylines. Almost. They still relate to each other and are a continuation of one another, since it's the same subject speaking. The italics is more of a present thing, whereas the regular font is more reflection on the past...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is pretty confusing, really. Right now I don't have much of a clear idea, although I keep thinking along certain lines - the question is, whether it's right direction or not. The "East to West" part really confuses me the most, or ruins most of my ideas, because it seems like it is pointing at the correct answer rather clearly, but its purpose avoids me. (I mean, if the answer could be "The Golden Company", it would have been easier ;) )

Okay, let's start with random shot in the dark, then - Osgiliath? (I am pretty sure that's not it, but at least could help to see if it's somehow around the correct line of thinking. Osgiliath, of course, could imply on the Gondorian soldiers to "keep"it and "not to leave" it, even though it's been practically destroyed - scarred etc; but the "bringing" and "not being happy" does not sound very fitting in that context. Listing the successes "from East to West" could somehow hazily refer to Mordor's conquests - from East to[wards] West; I also think here it would be stretching it a bit. Watching the water could be literal in the case of Osgiliath, given its geographic position, but again, if it was Osgiliath, I would have perhaps expected something more direct...)

[Galadriel55]

Not Osgiliath. You're thinking along the right lines, though. You have basically picked out some of the more important lines in the riddle. I would suggest also thinking about "Are they comming? No more going." Ask yourself who could be coming, and why there is no more going.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm. It really keeps puzzling me. Usually when I think of something, the water part really makes no sense in there, and what makes the least sense - always - is the "bring" part. Because I keep thinking of places.

Just continuing along the same lines from before - it occured to me that it might be Ithilien. It fits in most of the same cases as Osgiliath (though I'd be careful about saying that it "never" heals, but then again, Osgiliath might too), the water could also be a hint to Henneth Annun, and most importantly, all this coming/going could refer to the whole Ranger/Haradrim stuff.

But somehow I still think I'm too far off. Right now I basically keep focused on places, and Gondor-related ones on top of that, because it sounds like the most plausible. And of those, Osgiliath/Ithilien sounded the best. But we'll see.

[Urwen]

Well, now I am thinking Maglor for some reason.


For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

First Age shenanigans
Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

The shoutout to grey haven bunch (Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond etc etc to take him with them.

The verse 'you can't watch the water flowing' indicates that he can only watch the sea, whose waters don't flow.

[Galadriel55]

Still no correct answer.

The verse 'you can't watch the water flowing' indicates that he can only watch the sea, whose waters don't flow.

It does not refer to the Sea, but I much like the bolded part.

But somehow I still think I'm too far off. Right now I basically keep focused on places, and Gondor-related ones on top of that, because it sounds like the most plausible. And of those, Osgiliath/Ithilien sounded the best. But we'll see.

Yeah, the subject is not even remotely related to Gondor. Aside from the fact that they are in the same universe...


There are some lines that could tip you off about the setting/event of the riddle, which would then help you identify the speaker. From East to West. Legate had some very good thoughts about this one. Are they coming? Oh yes they are. No more going. Why can't there be more going? The answer to this is not a sentimental one, but something very down-to-earth logical. Like 2+2=4. You can't watch the water flowing! Again, why can't you? Yet another very logical and not sentimental answer.


And again, as I said, the riddle has two parallel "plots" in it. If I were to rearrange the stanzas chronologically, it would look like this:

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!



The "Will you...me?" lines basically all take place at the same time. And they are a question for the future - will you take me now, so that later you will (perhaps) keep/bring/give me? The 4-line stanzas, on the other hand, all say what has happened in the past.


Also, regarding "heal" - the subject is partially recovered, but complete recovery is quite impossible.

[Urwen]

Well, now I have this crazy idea, the answer is not a person, but the answer did belong to a person, moreover, the answer, I think, belonged to Isildur in the past and had previously belonged to Elendil. Which means that the answer is Narsil.

Therefore, it now becomes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerandir http://forum.barrowdowns.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=674913#post674913)
Correct, your turn! I guess the hint I gave was too much, but without it, it would be pretty hard.

If you just said Yule/December/winter, I wouldn't have thought of it. But there are only that many events than involve Dunlendings. :)


Alright, here it goes. Hopefully it's at least a bit tricksy and not complete rubbish:


Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

(Sauron coming from Mordor to Numenor)

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

(Not happy about Numenor downfall)
I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
(Fall of Numenor)
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!
(This could also refer to coming of Eru, or maybe the fact that the Orcs are coming, and I think the second fact is more accurate. Isildur died while watching the flowing water, so he can't watch it anymore)

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

(It was probably given to Ohtar after and later forgotten until the late
third age)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay okay. In case Urwen's is not correct, I got one more idea - prompted by Gal's advice regarding the problematic verses.

At least this:

Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

If the only reason I can't watch the water flowing is that it is still, then... that brings to my mind the dammed Sirannon by the gates of Moria (with the lovely Watcher and all that belongs to it). The sentence are they coming? would then be much more literal reference to the famous last words in the Book of Mazarbul. (And why there can't be any more going when they are coming, is obvious: the Western side is blocked by the non-flowing water, the Orcs are coming, nowhere to go.)

Now it would be the rest of the riddle, on the other hand, which would prove more tricky to decipher. Of course many of the things can be taken as a general referrence to e.g. Moria as a whole. What puzzles me is Galadriel's insisting on the past/present explanation of the two parts of the riddle. Because to me, I have been taking note of this, but it does not seem to be such a big deal. Unless...

Unless it's the Book of Mazarbul itself (and I should facepalm myself for writing two paraghraphs of thinking aloud since mentioning it the first time). Then the "taking" and all (taking the book to carry it along, certainly not being a "happy" read; nor is it any beauty - it's been pretty much damaged in the battle, pages torn, bloodied, "skin" - possibly even the literal leather in which it's bound, huh? - also damaged...) would be very much plausible. Ah yes. That might be it. And, of course, what else does a book like that do than to list events - then, the past/present division would really be important in the riddle...

So? Is it the Book of Mazarbul? :)

[Galadriel55]

It's a brave attempt, Urwen, but Legate's shot went nearer. In fact, he quite hit the mark on the dead center. :)

It it indeed the Book of Mazarbul.

Here are some extracts from it that would help explain some things:

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success

We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and second hall... the pool is up to the wall al Westgate... We cannot get out. The end comes. They are coming. - They are coming, no more going, you can't watch the water flowing.

The book is quite "scarred" by all the holes, burns, and stains, and it is quite impossible to "heal" it, as Legate has said. And it's not strong; it is very fragile.


The questions "will you...me?" refer to Gimli. We know Gandalf told him to take the book, so yes he took it, and he probably kept it at least part of the way, but we don't know it's fate from there. Did Gimli succeed to bring it and give it to King Dain?



Well done, Legate, and good try, Urwen. Maybe next time you'll be more successful.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success
Ha! That's pretty cool observation. I never noticed that it actually runs in that direction. Interesting! (Well, of course, obviously that's the direction in which the Dwarves were moving, but such an analysis of this particular piece of writing shows how even the text's structure is exactly that way, something one does not necessarily think of normally.)

In any case, the most memorable riddles are the ones that are difficult and take some time to decipher, but not to the point that one becomes desperate and practically unable to answer :) So I would say this was one of the pretty good ones.

All right, so... I'll try to think of something... shortly!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. Not sure how good (and most of all, how decipherable ;) ) this is, but I hope it will be at least enjoyable for you :)

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.

[Galadriel55]

I do not have an answer that I am confident with, but I'll try this one anyways; maybe I'll even go in the right direction. And this could always give other people ideas.

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago. - Seek for the Sword that was Broken, in Imladris it dwells...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - dunno. Aragorn and Sam, perhaps? Sam was afraid and suspicious of Aragorn at first. But it's Aragorn that Sam dislikes, not his sword. And it is Glorfindel's appearance that puts him at ease, not Anduril's ability to "bring friends"...

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - could be a reference to the victory at Dagolrad.
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - Ohtar fled Isildur's death scene with Narsil, thus saving hope and enabling the latter generations (ie Aragorn) to use this powerful weapon again, thus bringing about Sauron's defeat.

No, I don't think it is the Shards of Narsil (or Narsil, or Anduril, or the Sword that was Broken, or what have you), but I am wondering if I am interpreting certain things right. For one thing, I think the first stanza is somehow referring to a vision or dream.


I mean, it would be much easier if the answer could be Dragonglass! :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good try, G55, but as you correctly say, it isn't the right interpretation :)

I shall write comments on your interpretations, make out of it what you will ;)

With the start, the first thing that I would have asked you would be whether you think Faramir's dream is unveiled by the skies. Maybe it is, if you were thinking along the lines that in that dream the sky in the east darkened and there came the voice speaking the riddle, of however it was. It could be that it was the skies that had spoken in that place, if it could be thus interpreted, then indeed it was a tale told by the skies that unveiled the truth about the Broken Sword etc. But like I said, it isn't the Broken Sword. I think you have proceeded correctly in the analysis of the second verse, especially in the analysis of why it isn't right :D And as usual, I took good care of which words I have used. If there is a word, it isn't just random, it has its purpose there.

So, the door is open - continue guessing...

[Galadriel55]

This time I can't shake off the idea that the first stanza is referring to these passages:

But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragnance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.



But........ it can't be right. Because then the subject (Valinor? sunrise? dream? rain?!) does not make sense with the rest of the riddle.


How much sense does it make to post answers I know beforehand to be incorrect for the sake of posting something? :rolleyes:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But........ it can't be right. Because then the subject (Valinor? sunrise? dream? rain?!) does not make sense with the rest of the riddle.


How much sense does it make to post answers I know beforehand to be incorrect for the sake of posting something? :rolleyes:

Oh it does, because it might nudge somebody in the right direction via some unlikely association, and also, it is equally important to determine where the path does not go :) With the above, I won't be so sure that the skies do actually reveal any hidden mysteries in such a case - unless you call Valinor a mystery.

If the "skies" part is too confusing, then of course you can start with something else and get back to it later.

[Galadriel55]

With the above, I won't be so sure that the skies do actually reveal any hidden mysteries in such a case - unless you call Valinor a mystery.

That's true. It was the only canonical mention of unveiling that I could think of, though. Perhaps there are others... hmm...

Wait, I know another mention. And this time it has to make sense.

"As if a dark veil had been withdrawn, the Mirror grew grey, and then clear." ~The Mirror of Galadriel

The Mirror reflects the stars and sky before the above happens.

Sam only sees the future. Frodo sees the present/future/recent past. And then he sees bits of history.
-Elendil's ships coming from the West in a great storm (while Numenor is sinking, presumably)
-wide river flowing from a populous city (Osgiliath?)
-white fortress with seven towers (Minas Tirith/Ithil?)


It makes too much sense with Elendil and/or one of his "crew", and yet not enough sense. Curse that Other! Curse the mystery! Curse the friends! *grumbles*

Maybe you're right, and I should start from a different corner.

[Galadriel55]

After some thinking... Aragorn's trip through the Paths of the Dead.

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil - Frodo sees Aragorn's pirate ship in the Mirror
mysteries hidden long ago. - the future was hidden by Iluvatar

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, - Denethor is still the ruler of Gondor. Or perhaps Eomer, who is already King of the Mark
I'm first a fear until - duh, they think he's a corsair.
I show him I can bring your friends; - a whole army of friends!
his trust shall be of importance. - huh? I mean, it could mean a whole lot of things, but I think this is something more specific than that Aragorn was friends with Eomer. Possibly that Eomer trusted Aragorn and gave him, Gimli, and Legolas horses to go look for the hobbits? No. Because "shall" is not "was".

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - now that's where it just crumbles to pieces.
and in mine and the Other's flight - that Other (may he be stabbed with dragonglass!) just kills it again. Aragorn leaves Theoden's side as if to escape battle and he travels at an impossible speed, either of which could be called flight, but he does it with over 30 men, not with one other! On the other hand, Aragorn is called Wingfoot by Eomer, but that is a totally different storyline and he still has more than one companion.
I save more than the tale did show. - well, he does, in the end.

Still no answer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No and no, like you once again correctly analyse, it won't work that way :)

The tale with Aragorn won't work because already in the first part, the Mirror, well, what does it have to do with the skies? Sure, skies reflect in it, but that's about it - they do not play any important part. It's the Mirror that shows, not the skies that reflect in it (in fact, only when the reflection disappears, then the Mirror starts to show something).

The second part is better, it would almost fit if not for the last sentence, it isn't only a random statement, the importance of the trust is really something notable :)

And like you said yourself, the third part just crumbles apart.

Don't feel discouraged (anyone) - and if you really feel lost, I can post some hint...

[R.]

The Great Eagles maybe ?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Any reasons for that? :)

I suggest, for future reference, to post at least some short summary, or main points why you think it might fit - it might also help you because then I can show where the thinking went wrong, and perhaps can help you correct it.

Also, since this is this type of question, I would prefer any possible answers to include at least a note on what are the "first, second and third" mentioned in the riddle. If you guess correctly, then you should be able to figure out. It is not a necessary requirement to be absolutely sure with all three, if your answer is right, I will accept it anyway, but it would be better so it isn't just random guessing...

But no, "The Great Eagles" is not the answer.

[Galadriel55]

For lack of any intelligent guess, I'll just analyze the riddle. Maybe something will come into my head while I'm writing.


To first of you, I'm just a tale, - the fact that it's "just" a tale brings me to the conclusion that they've never met, but the first of you has heard about the speaker
told by the skies, - Legate's comments make it sound like it is literally told by the skies, and the fact that it's specifically the sky is important
as they unveil - I was going for a canonical mention of unveiling, but I might have been overreaching here. It could just be a way of saying "revealing".
mysteries hidden long ago. - it's the mystery part that's troubling.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - this verse sounds like the most straightforward thing in this riddle.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - the word enlighten is botherig me a bit - shed light or knowledge, or, in a wordplay, could be to make less heavy. Judging purely by the wording of the sentence, it sounds more like sheding light.
and in mine and the Other's - not one, not three, but two of them.
flight - to fly or to flee? I certainly hope it's not a flight of stairs, because that makes no sense.
I save more than the tale did show. - I'm wondering if this is a bit of poetic license or the "tale" really didn't appreciate the flight enough. Also, could it be the same tale as was referred to in the beginning? Hmm.



As a random guess, could it by the Sun or the Moon? No it couldn't. The first and third stanza could fit, the second fits with a stretch. And who exactly is bigger? Erm...never mind. (that's the general outline of my thought process for the past few days...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Evaluation of the above: this was absolutely perfect analysis of the riddle (of course there are places where further clarification would help more, but as it is, I cannot find any flaws in the analysis). I don't have anything to add to that and comment on. The "thinking aloud" and analysis of why something might mean something and what could it be and all the questions are also going in pretty right directions. So the only thing that remains is basically to find the concrete and specific subject(s) of the riddle :)

[R.]

Any reasons for that? :)

I suggest, for future reference, to post at least some short summary, or main points why you think it might fit - it might also help you because then I can show where the thinking went wrong, and perhaps can help you correct it.

Also, since this is this type of question, I would prefer any possible answers to include at least a note on what are the "first, second and third" mentioned in the riddle. If you guess correctly, then you should be able to figure out. It is not a necessary requirement to be absolutely sure with all three, if your answer is right, I will accept it anyway, but it would be better so it isn't just random guessing...

But no, "The Great Eagles" is not the answer.

Oh my apologies I didn't really understand the thread, plus I couldn't possibly hope to answer as eloquent or articulately as most of the other members. SORRY

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my apologies I didn't really understand the thread, plus I couldn't possibly hope to answer as eloquent or articulately as most of the other members. SORRY

It doesn't have to be that eloquent, and it isn't really required to post the explanation of everything. Only I prefer it (especially in this case) so that I know people aren't just throwing around random words.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, does this need some hint? :)

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

[Galadriel55]

So, does this need some hint? :)

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

Well, I haven't forgotten about this, I just don't have any better ideas. So I suppose a hint would help. I'm not sure if it calls for a big hint, but a small one would be nice. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Small one... okay.

I do not know how to phrase this, but let's say for example this and see whether it is enough of a hint :)

Very much of the riddle, or, very many things, phrases, which could be metaphorical, are in fact literal. Not all of them, but certainly more than half of the riddle can be understood literally :cool:

[Galadriel55]

Whatever I think, I keep returning in an endless cycle to the Silmarili - in particular the one of Earendil.

I know it doesn't really fit. Nothing I could think of does. I can make a whole list of things that don't fit.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - Earendil was a mariner that tarried in Arvernien... or how does it go? Eventually it gets to the Silmaril part. So the "first" is some hobbit. Frodo, maybe. Or Sam.
told by the skies, as they unveil - told by the skies? Well he's seen in the skies often enough, but told?...
mysteries hidden long ago. - I suppose no one except for Elwing saw that Silmaril up close since Earendil went out to his long voyage in the sky...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - I'm not really sure; this could refer to one of the times where Gil Estel was used as a reference point for direction (hence "bring")

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - to Earendil himself when he journeyed West
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - when Elwing flew to Earendil's ship with the Silmaril. It's a great thing that she did too, because of all the possible conequences both at sea and in Beleriand that would have happened had she not done so. Yet she's just said to have flown onto Earendil's ship, and he is given all the credit for their journey.


The second stanza really ruins it. And that the skies tell the tale.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, the skies... :smokin: How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?

So as for your attempt, as you have expected, not really. This is much more off than your previous general analysis. In fact, it is very very much off, except for the fact that you happened to mention one related thing, which has not been mentioned on this thread before.

I would maybe say one more thing. Have you noticed that the whole riddle is written so that the subject addresses "you"? So the subjects present in the riddle are: the answer, then some "you" which is being addressed (and whose friends can be brought), then there happens to be "the first of you" (showing that the "you" probably should be a plural...); and then there is the one defined only as "the second one"; and then the third one, whom you don't know.

[Galadriel55]

It's much easier to say what it could mean than to find something that actually fits all the criteria. :)

So far I have considered and discarded Ents, Pippin, and Gollum. Pippin could kinda fit with a stretch - first=Theoden, second=Bergil, third?... but friends? and Bergil and Theoden didn't really know each other - so no, it couldn't.

And the skies... most of the time it's something like "the skies darkened with nightfall as the travellers walked on"...


This is pretty much not a guess but a post to show that I'm still here...:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, not Pippin, nor Gollum nor Ents.

Maybe you can try approaching it again from a different perspective. How many events that can be described as "terror's night" do we have in Tolkien? And then you can try dismantling the third stanza based on that and further, the others...

[Galadriel55]

I do beliebe I've learned the riddle by heart now, but I'm still no closer to the answer. :rolleyes:


Alright. What can I come up with for terror's night? Off the top of my head, the death of the 2 Trees, and the darkness that Sauron sent out in preparation for the decisive battle. What could have enlightened anyone/thing at those times?

Death of the 2 Trees of Valinor: The Silmarili and the fruit of the trees, ie the Sun and Moon. But I have already guessed both. Wait... stars! But stars don't seem to make much sense with the rest of the riddle. I don't think anything was made lighter at that time, so that meaning is out. How about to make known? It's awkward phrasing, if that's the meaning, but there's one instance of finding knowledge, when Manwe looks from Taniquetil and sees Morgoth escaping in a black cloud. So is it possible that "to the third"=to Manwe, "enlighten the terror's night"="explain" (for lack of a better word) the reason for the darkness, "flight"=Morgoth's and Ungoliant's... but which is "I"?

Sauron's darkness before battle: too many and too few things that are involved with light. Phial of Galadriel? Therefore the "third" has to be Frodo or Sam, but the rest makes very little sense. Beacons? Can neither fly nor flee and are no mystery. The wind that blew the dark away? Ridiculous. Make lighter - Sam helping Frodo? Doesn't fit. Give knowledge? Faramir to Gandalf about Frodo? Then who are "you"? Everyone knows Gandalf. Plus, he's not some sort of mystery.



Just as a fun note, I=Gandalf and Other=Balrog, because, wings or no wings, they did succeed in flying. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just as a fun note, I=Gandalf and Other=Balrog, because, wings or no wings, they did succeed in flying.

Flying, you fools :)

Valiant attempt (and certainly I appreciate resurrecting the thread!), G55. However, both of your attempts to find "terror's night" have one thing in common.

Neither of them is literally a night. :smokin:

I mean, one is darkness created by the fact that the only sources of light had been destroyed, the other is some supernatural darkness unleashed from Mordor. But "night" is simply the word for certain time of day (er... night). I want to hear about that one.

Hope it helps :cool:

[The Might]

I have returned!
And I have a strong hunch the answer is Túrin.
Here's my thoughts, mostly based on the first four lines.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - No idea who the first person is
told by the skies, as they unveil - In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return. In later developments of the story, the stars came to represent none other than Túrin, who was fated to return from the dead and face Melkor in the Last Battle.
mysteries hidden long ago. - This tradition can be seen in the words of the Silmarillion, where Menelvagor 'forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days.'

I don't have many ideas for the other lines and it's late so I can't come up with much. :D

[Morsul the Dark]

I want to say beorn the first two make me thin of the big and little dippers or Ursa Major and Minor ursa the bear... story told in the sky... I know it doesn't really fit but it's what I'm taking away from the riddle for now...

[Galadriel55]

I have returned!
And I have a strong hunch the answer is Túrin.
Here's my thoughts, mostly based on the first four lines.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - No idea who the first person is
told by the skies, as they unveil - In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return. In later developments of the story, the stars came to represent none other than Túrin, who was fated to return from the dead and face Melkor in the Last Battle.
mysteries hidden long ago. - This tradition can be seen in the words of the Silmarillion, where Menelvagor 'forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days.'

I don't have many ideas for the other lines and it's late so I can't come up with much. :D

Dang you! :D That's probably it. I can think of scenarios from Turin's life that would fit the other two stanzas. Confound it all! :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey hey, lovely to see the interest in this thread renewed :)

Sadly, neither of the answers provided is correct. You'd have to find how Túrin fits to the rest of the riddle ;) But I strongly suspect he doesn't. As for the Ursa Minor-Ursa Major guess, that's certainly a clever approach, but not a correct one. All of the references are strictly "in-universe".

Guessing Túrin is once again looking for too advanced things in there.

[Azaghâl]

Yes, the skies... :smokin: How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?A most valid question, reminded me of the rain (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=554306#post554306)... ;)

And not only do they play a role but they "unveil mysteries hidden long ago". It had to be the keyhole revealed by the setting sun, when it is litterally unveiled by the clouds at the last second.

Still the rest made no sense. Then there were the friends which I thought could be Dain and his army; and the Other which could be the Eagles, or their King as it is a singular, and well they did save the day, nearly.

I was getting near but I still didn't get the "I". It took me another week but now I think I have it and because it never harms to go back to the texts, this is my answer:


To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots. Crack! It had caught a snail and was knocking it on the stone. Crack! Crack!
Suddenly Bilbo understood.


To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.'We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure,' said Balin. 'Keep watch now, and see what happens!'
Before long there was a fluttering of wings, and back came the thrush; and with him came a most decrepit old bird.


And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.Suddenly out of the dark something fluttered to his shoulder. He started - but it was only an old thrush. Unafraid it perched by his ear and it brought him news. Marvelling he found he could understand its tongue, for he was of the race of Dale.


So in the end, the friends are the ravens, and the Other is Smaug. First, second and third are Bilbo, Balin and Bard who is unknown to the first two at this point of the story. I, of course, is the thrush. That is my interpretation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes and yes indeed!! That was absolutely amazing job, Azaghâl! You deserve applause for solving this riddle after what seemed a bit like lost case. (I have already forgotten about the rain riddle, but I see that there remains some similar pattern in my riddles - whether it's for good or not remains a question :cool: )

I think the key here was really to start thinking about The Hobbit. It sort of frustrated me (though I can imagine similar frustration on the side of those who tried to guess) to see everyone once again starting to think about obscure things from the Silmarillion or who knows where, since I picked The Hobbit intentionally, as everybody was aware of the movie being released that year (when I posted the riddle originally... :rolleyes: ), and once again I thought I was being too obvious (well, I think so every time and every time I am proven to be wrong).

So the "I" is, of course, the thrush; aside from what Azaghâl said, "to first of you, I'm just a tale..." was also supposed to allude to the hidden script written in Moon-Letters, where the thrush is really only mentioned in a rather cryptic way; the mysteries could also refer to the script itself, revealed only under the moonlight. "The first" could then be practically anyone of the Company, I was thinking of Thorin, since then the use of words "the first" could have double meaning, but it isn't necessary (the "you" of course is Thorin's company as a whole in any case). "The second" was meant to be specifically Bilbo, with the hint to his height (however the smallest, still bigger than the thrush), plus he was the one mistrustful about the thrush in the beginning. "His trust was of importance" because of what followed, so the thrush could be around and Bard could learn about Smaug's weak spot. The rest Azaghâl sums up correctly - the "terror's night" is indeed the night when Lake-Town is destroyed, the Other is Smaug, the person referred to is Bard; I could only add that with the line "I save more than the tale did show" I was thinking about The Quest of Erebor (and the Appendices to LotR) where Gandalf remarks that perhaps by killing the Dragon the Free Peoples were saved from one possible future ally of Sauron who could literally set the North ablaze. But that's all detail and all was supposed only to serve the identification; the main point is the thrush, and that is the correct answer.

I think Azaghâl rightfully deserves to post the next riddle :) Looking forward to it!

[Galadriel55]

Great job indeed, Azaghal! That was absolutely amazing!

I can't believe I've been walking around it in circles for weeks. I have considered the reveal part to be a reference to "the clouds burst", and I thought of Smaug's attack as the night, but it didn't make sense because I never thought that I is the thrush. Azaghal deserves all the praise for getting it. :)

[Azaghâl]

Yes and yes indeed!! That was absolutely amazing job, Azaghâl! You deserve applause for solving this riddle after what seemed a bit like lost case.

Not so amazing, as I had the first and second wrong. The Moon revealing the hidden letters crossed my mind as an interpretation of the skies unveiling mysteries, but by the time I was really convinced it was about the keyhole I had totally forgotten that the letters did mention the thrush. So, taking only from the scene I quoted, the first had to be Bilbo and then he could not be the second so it had to be Balin.

I was concerned that my interpretation did not cover everything in your riddle but now it all makes sense. Just give me until tomorrow and I should come up with something.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not so amazing, as I had the first and second wrong. The Moon revealing the hidden letters crossed my mind as an interpretation of the skies unveiling mysteries, but by the time I was really convinced it was about the keyhole I had totally forgotten that the letters did mention the thrush. So, taking only from the scene I quoted, the first had to be Bilbo and then he could not be the second so it had to be Balin.

I was concerned that my interpretation did not cover everything in your riddle but now it all makes sense. Just give me until tomorrow and I should come up with something.

Well, these are minor details, really. As I said, all these things about who is the first or second are supposed to be "helpers" (and they are variable, as long as it fits). The main thing is the thrush.

[Azaghâl]

Well here is my feeble attempt, certainly not as good as yours, and probably too easy. While I enjoy immensely guessing at riddles, writing one is a nighmare, anyway here it is.



When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well here is my feeble attempt, certainly not as good as yours, and probably too easy. While I enjoy immensely guessing at riddles, writing one is a nighmare, anyway here it is.



When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

see I was thinking Gandalf until the last verser which makes me think Aragorn...

See Gandalf fits in with Thorin's father locked away hope lost
finding his way over the mountain un the waters and highest twer the balrog pursuit
to come and bring back friend to friend lover to lover kinsman to kinsman could be any number of folks

Aragorn however clinches the army of the dead... fulfill their oath and be done...

will keep thinking

[Galadriel55]

I am thinking it's Luthien releasing the prisoners of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. The waters don't make sense, though, and allowing to give voice? Hmm...

[Azaghâl]

Sorry, Morsul the Dark, it is neither Aragorn nor Gandalf.

Galadriel55, you are very much nearer the spot, though the "I" is not Luthien. I could comment more on your answer but I am afraid it would give it away. Thanks for your praises in your previous post, by the way.

[Galadriel55]

Galadriel55, you are very much nearer the spot, though the "I" is not Luthien.

If not Luthien, then my guess is Finrod Felagund.


When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

In the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

"I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman", and Beren cannot follow him because he is a Man.

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Not sure... I mean, yes, it is because of him that Beren and Luthien met again, and the kinsman could be interpreted as him joining Finarfin in Aman, but can't see a friend?

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released

All the prisoners of Tol-in-Gaurhoth are released when Luthien takes over. However, only Beren "gives voice" before he is released.

[Azaghâl]

Good try but it is not Felagund and while both Beren and Luhien are indeed mentioned in the riddle, they are not the answer either.

[Gil-Galad]

When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

This is a really good riddle!

I want to say either Maedhros or even the Silmarils. Even Feanor screams at me, mostly because of the kinsman parts and how the Noldor were linked to the Silmarils.

Unless this is a hobbit/lotr riddle, I fear to be going in the wrong direction

[Azaghâl]

None of your three guesses is the answer, but I have to say that Maedhros is indeed mentioned in the riddle.

[Galadriel55]

Is it Thorondor?

When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Everything to do with Thangorodrim

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

This is true, unless Elves, Men, and Dwarves can somehow grow wings

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Fingon and Maedhros, Beren and Luthien, ...Hurin and Huor?

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

Now that's still a bit puzzling...

[Azaghâl]

No, it is not Thorondor, but now that you have the lovers, Beren and Luthien, and the kinsmen, Maedhros and Fingon, you only need to find the friends, who are not Húrin and Huor or I would have written 'brother to brother'. :)

The "I" should be made clear then, I think.



EDIT: the last two verses have been deliberately phrased so as to be puzzling, because I was afraid the riddle would be too easy.

[Nerwen]

Could the "I" be, not a person, but something abstract like "song" or "music"? The whole would then refer to various incidents where characters found each other through it.

[Galadriel55]

Could the "I" be, not a person, but something abstract like "song" or "music"? The whole would then to various incidents where characters found each other through it.

Ah, and then the friends are Frodo and Sam. Brilliant! :D

[Nerwen]

Ah, and then the friends are Frodo and Sam.
That's who I was thinking of, yes- but of course I could be completely out anyway.

[Azaghâl]

Brilliant indeed, Nerwen, music, or songs, is the answer, though Galadriel55 has found the three couples. The descriptions were supposed to be taken litterally for each one of them. Friend behind closed doors in the highest tower, lover in deep dungeons under wide waters and kinsman enchained in the mountains.

So I guess the thread is Nerwen's now, though I know you used to be terrible (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=569415#post569415)at this.

[Nerwen]

Sister, craft-sister,
Never to meet;
Thou with thy hands laboured,
I with my feet.

Each of us, sister,
Our loves wound or slay.
Thou seekest darkness;
I end the day.

Thou a son hadst whom legend keeps;
A daughter was mine,
Yet never shall peace be
'Twixt thy kin and mine.

[Gil-Galad]

Sister, craft-sister,
Never to meet;
Thou with thy hands laboured,
I with my feet.

Each of us, sister,
Our loves wound or slay.
Thou seekest darkness;
I end the day.

Thou a son hadst whom legend keeps;
A daughter was mine,
Yet never shall peace be
'Twixt thy kin and mine.

The more the read this, the more I love it for its beauty and hate it for making me think.

Eru and Morgoth jumped out at me first, then the Moon and the Sun. The sister part is what gets me, if it is literal or figurative.

[Morsul the Dark]

I keep thinking Arwen is one of them....

[Nerwen]

Gil, the "sister" part is figurative; the rest is more-or-less literal. In a broader sense, though, the whole thing is fanciful, as the speaker would never have actually said all this to the other party.

Morsul- no, it is not Arwen, but you may be on the right track, depending on why you think that.

[Mithalwen]

I thought thethou was Miriel noted for her embroidery as well as her deathwish and famous son.

Struggling with the feet of the other!

[Nerwen]

Ah! Keep going, Mith.

The feet are very important.

[Morsul the Dark]

Gil, the "sister" part is figurative; the rest is more-or-less literal. In a broader sense, though, the whole thing is fanciful, as the speaker would never have actually said all this to the other party.

Morsul- no, it is not Arwen, but you may be on the right track, depending on why you think that.

well craft-sister Arwen in seen sewing then her son... wow drawing a blank on his name. becomes the nexct king that's why so I'll keep thinking.

I was thinking along the lines of art like the feet belong to a dancer...

[Mithalwen]

Feanor had plenty of enemies so that doesn't limit the field. Daughters are a bit ther on the ground. ?. Ponders

[Gil-Galad]

Miriel and Thingol perhaps? Thingol's kin fought bitterly against Feanor's kin, and Thingol did have a daughter.

[Nerwen]

No, not Thingol.

Note: "Kin" is used in a very broad sense.

[Urwen]

Something tells me that the speaker is Nimloth and her 'sister' is Idril. Her daughter, Elwing and Idril's son, Earendil, gave birth to hope in the future and her and Idril's grandson was involved in successful destruction of their enemy's successor, Sauron. Of course, Noldor and Sindar were dead-set enemies, but this kinship reconciled them.

[Nerwen]

No, it isn't Nimloth.. In case I haven't been clear, Mith has already got half of it- the "sister" is Miriel.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I still keep thinking that the other person is Galadriel. Because I think I still can't come up with anything better, I will reveal my reasoning, maybe somebody else will conclude something based on it - the "labour with feet" seems to me like allusion to travel, thus, the Flight of Noldor, obviously, and probably the "no peace between kin" means Fëanor and either the whole second line, or Finarfin's house, anyway. Galadriel had a daughter, of course.

[Nerwen]

No, not Galadriel either, though that would indeed fit most of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... all right. Just in case (but maybe my reasoning will help somebody, provided it is on the right track), how much relevant is the second part? Because THAT is what I can't figure out at all. No clue whatsoever what it could refer to.

ERM! I JUST REALISED! OKAY!

IS IT UNGOLIANT???

Craft = weaver... ends the day...

[Ardent]

Miriel means emroideress. Only Ungoliant and her children spin with their feet.

[Nerwen]

Legate– yes, it is Ungoliant. :D

I was wondering if anyone was going to get it...

[Morsul the Dark]

Goog job legate... So Arwen's sewing was sort of kind of somewhat in the vicinity of kind of near the ballparkish area...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate– yes, it is Ungoliant. :D

I was wondering if anyone was going to get it...

Well, truth be told, it was really difficult. Of course in hindsight, neither of the answers is that obscure. But I guess it was the use of the word "kin" that kept returning me to think both the "persons" in question are Elves, what more, likely Noldor, and also the fact that I purposefully ignored the middle part, because it made no sense to me whatsoever.

But I really think it was sort of a joint effort on the thread - especially Mith's recognizing of Míriel. I wouldn't have thought of it, probably, or not until last week, when I was randomly rereading the Silmarillion, where it of course jumped at me - but otherwise, I kept thinking of more, say, "mainstream" characters (like Morsul's Arwen).

It's funny, I think of course the darkening of Valinor was quite clearly on my mind when reading the second paragraph for the first time, but since it didn't fit at all with the rest of the riddle, I simply blocked it.

I will try to think of some riddle, then. (Though, since I've been posting them a lot, and Mith guessed the first half, I think if she happened to be around and wanted to post one, I think it wouldn't be against the rules that she could post, too. So Mith, if you wanted, just say, before I think of something...)

[Nerwen]

Well, truth be told, it was really difficult. Of course in hindsight, neither of the answers is that obscure. But I guess it was the use of the word "kin" that kept returning me to think both the "persons" in question are Elves, what more, likely Noldor, and also the fact that I purposefully ignored the middle part, because it made no sense to me whatsoever.
Thanks- and of course I was counting on all that.;)

[Galadriel55]

Ah, good one! :) I would never think to link those two ladies together! I was looking more at the lines of slaying love and ending day, so I was looking for suicidal shieldswomen. :rolleyes: Not very hard to find, but doesn't fit.

Just a question. How does Ungoliant slay/wound her love?

Once again, wow Legate, and tricksy riddle, Nerwen!

[Nerwen]

Ah, good Just a question. How does Ungoliant slay/wound her love?

That was meant more as a clue to the kind of creature she was. However, the specific reference is-
For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them...

[Mithalwen]

Oh no, I would never have got Ungoliant ..too ignorant of arachnids... Miriel was the easy bit. So over to LoAL

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so here it comes.

"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

Enjoy riddling ;)

[Ardent]

Tricksy it is. The verses might be alternating between two speakers in dialogue, or they could be a monologue...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Tricksy it is. The verses might be alternating between two speakers in dialogue, or they could be a monologue...

Hm hmm hm. I was wondering whether to write it there or not, or whether to write it later if people wanted clarification or hint... but I can start with it, because it was meant to be the point of the riddle to identify the two subjects, and it would be pretty confusing - so yes, there are two subjects in the riddle. The 1st, 3rd and 5th belong to one, the 2nd and 4th to the other.

[Ardent]

The unknown warrior whose body was found on the Paths of the Dead fits in part, but I don't know if he was a king. The king famous for his spear was Gilgalad. The latter metaphorically fell into darkness "in Mordor where the shadows are" while the former litterally fell in darkness.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The unknown warrior whose body was found on the Paths of the Dead fits in part, but I don't know if he was a king. The king famous for his spear was Gilgalad. The latter metaphorically fell into darkness "in Mordor where the shadows are" while the former litterally fell in darkness.

Not bad, and certainly could be argued for the case, but not what I had in mind. How would you explain the third part? (And the question asked just before it? Note that the third part is an answer to "tell me, what's there / the two of us share?" That's very important, actually.)

The dead guy at the Paths of Dead was Baldor, son of Brego, as far as I am aware, he was a prince-to-be of the Mark, but he never actually lived to get the title.

[Morsul the Dark]

I keep thinking I have the first person but the long before me rules out most ideas...

[Ardent]

...How would you explain the third part? (And the question asked just before it? ...

Not Baldor then, if he was never a king.

...what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

Sam's song of Gilgalad begins "of him the harpers sadly sing", which is pretty much in the way of piercing the heart.
The army of the Dead had spears "like winter thickets on a misty night" (Legolas), but then they would not be Baldor's army.
It is unclear whether the Dead had a King, I thought Peter Jackson invented that character. I read the phrase "the coming of the King of the Dead" as a reference to Aragorn, but he would not fit your verse because he is not 'long dead'.

That leaves me considering other dead kings of unknown throne and enemies... hmm :confused:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not Baldor then, if he was never a king.

...what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

Sam's song of Gilgalad begins "of him the harpers sadly sing", which is pretty much in the way of piercing the heart.
The army of the Dead had spears "like winter thickets on a misty night" (Legolas), but then they would not be Baldor's army.
It is unclear whether the Dead had a King, I thought Peter Jackson invented that character. I read the phrase "the coming of the King of the Dead" as a reference to Aragorn, but he would not fit your verse because he is not 'long dead'.

That leaves me considering other dead kings of unknown throne and enemies... hmm :confused:
Just keep thinking, then :)

I keep thinking I have the first person but the long before me rules out most ideas...
I'm curious to hear it, maybe if you think of some way to make it fit, you can then present it :)

[Morsul the Dark]

All right, so here it comes.

"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

Enjoy riddling ;)

I feel the indented could be Thorin's father or grandfather(sorry forgetting name) He ended up in the deep dungeons of Sauron(Black pit) his throne is empty. But his army would have axes not spears....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I feel the indented could be Thorin's father or grandfather(sorry forgetting name) He ended up in the deep dungeons of Sauron(Black pit) his throne is empty. But his army would have axes not spears....

Well, at least until you figure out who would the second one be, and if they would make any sense put together, you won't know :)

[Morsul the Dark]

Well, at least until you figure out who would the second one be, and if they would make any sense put together, you won't know :)

I have no idea why but reading this made me think of this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlBr2fyqn9g) :p

I'll keep thinking.

[Morsul the Dark]

I wonder if Majesty really means King. Like it could be something Majestic...

Ormal, where is his throne? he doesn't have one...
but then who would Ormals "men be?" branches instead of spears? I wish they could pierce.
What he had was golden

That would make Theoden the other he is dead... his throne was cold and dark especially under the influence of wormtongue.

That seems stretching some of the clues though.

[Nerwen]

Well, Morsul, knowing Legate there's probably some kind of trick to it– but that one does sound like a stretch to me.

[Galadriel55]

I wonder if Majesty really means King. Like it could be something Majestic...

THORIN (http://25.media.tumblr.com/7bbebde23331cd945d7467bb0cecd4b9/tumblr_mfcr35Fu6B1s0hxj9o1_500.png)!!! :D


I seem to be quite fixated on the first person being one of the Barrow-wights. Long dead, and having gold, and throwing spears (at unsuspecting hobbits like Merry), don't have specific foes as such, just kinda kill everyone...

Now, the second person reminds me very much of Thror, as Morsul said - stone throne, black pit=Dark Chasm=Moria - but some things don't fit, and he definitely came along after the Wights. 

So my guess would therefore be a Wight and Turgon, who came to the Nirnaeth at the end of a night with an army of spears behind him. (but cold dark throne?)

[Nerwen]

So–

Both parties are rulers (whether literal or metaphorical remains to be seen).

Both have something in common.

They are not contemporaries.

"A"
–is "bold" (may or may not be significant).
–is associated with gold in some way.
–is long since dead.
–his/her/its enemies and realm are unknown. This may mean Legate wants us to guess, or it may mean all this has "now" been forgotten.
Very little information about "A", really.

"B"
–was around long before "A".
–was involved in nocturnal battles involving spears; something about this is what A and B have in common.
–his/her/its throne is "in cold, dark and stone". I'm not sure what that means– maybe just that "B's realm is now abandoned. But could mean "subterranean".
–ultimate fate was a "black pit". (Moria? Or does it mean "died in a dungeon" or something similar?)

Interestingly, it seems there are three distinct "bands" of time referred to– the "present", the past ("A"'s time) and the deeper past ("B's" time). If the "present" is the real present, "A" having died "long ago" doesn't rule anyone out, and is basically meaningless. If, however, it refers to some time actually written about by Tolkien– most likely the late Third Age, then it does narrow it down– for instance, "A" then could not be Theoden.

[Nerwen]

So my guess would therefore be a Wight and Turgon, who came to the Nirnaeth at the end of a night with an army of spears behind him.
What do they have in common, though? Legate says that's very important.

EDIT: Oh, you just mean, using spears? That also seems a stretch to me. And would the "if just mine could" part refer just to a spear?

[Nerwen]

Hmmn... No, I don't think Turgon will fit either. His throne may have been in Gondolin, the "Hidden Rock"– but he didn't end in a "black pit".

But that does have me thinking about First Age kings. Could "B"– the indented party– be Finrod Felagund? That would tick all the boxes, anyway. (The "spears by night" part would then refer to the Fen of Serech incident in the Dagor Bragollach.)

[Ardent]

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

When Merry is awakened by Tom Bombadil in the Barrow Downs he is wearing a gold circlet and says: “ The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart!”

The King of Carn Dum was the Witch King of Angmar, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul. After defeating Arnor he sent wights to inhabit Cardolan, making it a place of terror. I would expect the second speaker to be him because:
1/ his origin was in the Second Age and Angmar only arose in the Third.
2/ Angmar was cold, dark and mountainous
3/ his fate was foretold by Glofindel upon the destruction of Angmar.
4/ wanting justice his victim would have him speared through the heart.

The Barrow Downs remained and the ghost of the dead king was still there with the wights when the Hobbits were rescued by Tom. He took the dead king's blade and gave it to Merry, who used it to stab the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields.

[Nerwen]

I think you must have it, Ardent. That would be the most– what shall I say– satisfying solution so far, because the spear-part would really mean something, not just "A had a spear and B had a spear too".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Some very, very, very, very, very good points raised here. I am impressed, honestly :) Especially when it comes to Nerwen's systematic analysis and Ardent's thoughts.

Some very nice brainstorming you have here. But brainstorming, so far, is all it is. I am still missing a clear "A is this, B is that" - answer :)

[Galadriel55]

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

Yes, that's the wight I had in mind.


As for the second speaker, Finrod definitely fits, as Nerwen said, except that the spears weren't his but Barahir's.

Thinking aloud, the throne is in cold, dark, and stone - meaning that it does not have to be abandoned or subterranean, but surrounded by the said things (eg in stone walls). Then, "it's late". What? And "black pit is your fate" doesn't necessarily mean he perished in a pit, it just has a big part to play in his life. And there is some sort of prophecy or foresight about it.

I think it's also interesting that the first person preaks with "you", but the second uses "thou". What does this mean? Well, one thing is clear - that I should stop analyzing the riddle linguistically and start coming up with solutions. :p



Anyways, now I'm wondering if the second King in question might be sort of outside the box, someone that's not an Elf/Man/Dwarf. Therefore my next guess would be the King of Cardolan Wight and Morgoth.

Morgoth doesn't really fit the spear part (and doesn't really fit at all, except with a stretch of black pit into the Void and for the throne), but I won't calm down until I get him out of my system. :p

[Ardent]

Yes, that's the wight I had in mind.
I was thinking wight at first, but when I re-read the story and its background I realised that the dead king was a ghost, and that the wights were servants of the enemy. When Frodo wakes in the barrow he sees his friends arrayed as men of old but with a long sword laid over them. The wight is the creature whose hand creeps around the corner.

Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.

[Ardent]

I think you must have it, Ardent. That would be the most– what shall I say– satisfying solution so far, because the spear-part would really mean something, not just "A had a spear and B had a spear too".

My interpretation rather hinges on the word 'just':

...spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
Pierce hearts like yours do.

It could mean "if only" but I'm taking it to mean "if there is any justice". Riddles rely on this kind of ambiguity, but I may yet be barking up the wrong tree.

[Galadriel55]

I was thinking wight at first, but when I re-read the story and its background I realised that the dead king was a ghost, and that the wights were servants of the enemy. When Frodo wakes in the barrow he sees his friends arrayed as men of old but with a long sword laid over them. The wight is the creature whose hand creeps around the corner.

Ah, gotcha. I must have been confusing them.

Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.

Not necessarily, but possibly. (If you're interested, here's (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=17540)a thread about it)

[Nerwen]

As for the second speaker, Finrod definitely fits, as Nerwen said, except that the spears weren't his but Barahir's.
But Barahir was Finrod's vassal, as I recall, so by extension they're also "his" men. That was my reasoning, anyway– but it doesn't sound like it is that.

Originally Posted by Ardent
Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.
Or it could indicate the relative status of the two.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am sort of wondering if I should comment at all, or let you do your brainstorming regardless where it takes you :) Your choice - if you want me to comment on everything, or whether you prefer to first "brainstorm" and only when you say "okay, I think this is the answer, because..." I should respond why it's wrong :p

I can say this though - don't stretch it. My riddles tend to be often more straightforward than people think they are. If you saw any of my previous ones, I keep saying that every time, and yet every time people are imagining that I am a) speaking metaphorically b) about Inglor Felagund's fifteenth cousin, c) calling him a pineapple, whereas what I am talking about actually, is the pineapple Bilbo Baggins had for breakfast.

And one more thing I could tell you for sure - both the subjects of the riddle are specific, they have their own names (so not "unnamed king of Cardolan" or such).

[Morsul the Dark]

Wait wait wait I think I've got the first speaker!

Rereading the hobbit and stumbled across:
"From that the talk turned to the horde itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead),"

King Bladorthin

He never got his spears certainly would wish he had them. We know nothing of who his armies' foes would be or where he was from.

The second could be Ingwe

Now Ingwelead the vanya famous for their spears. He never returned from Valinor so his throne would be cold and dark.

but what they share is harder ro guess...


"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

[Morsul the Dark]

Black pit doesn't fit Ingwe though....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that deserves an applause, Morsul. Yes, the first speaker indeed is Bladorthin. Now I was sure that will be the toughest part for everone. As you can see, with such an obscure character, it was pretty difficult for me to make a riddle only about him, so I decided to find some other subject that could have at least a couple of things in common with him.

Now, of course, the other subject is not Ingwe, and you rightly state one reason why. So that still remains to be guessed. Good luck :)

[Morsul the Dark]

Now that deserves an applause, Morsul. Yes, the first speaker indeed is Bladorthin. Now I was sure that will be the toughest part for everone. As you can see, with such an obscure character, it was pretty difficult for me to make a riddle only about him, so I decided to find some other subject that could have at least a couple of things in common with him.

Now, of course, the other subject is not Ingwe, and you rightly state one reason why. So that still remains to be guessed. Good luck :)

Sweet. Now onto the other. Thank You!

[Ardent]

... onto the other...
So the other has at least two things in common with the known character. All we know is:
"... the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for..."

Possible links are:

spears
something forged, maybe more than once
something inlaid with gold
something never delivered
something never paid for
something found in the hoard of Smaug.




Smaug was probably responsible for the non-delivery of the spears, so our mystery guest is [7] long dead or long born pre-Smaug.

The subject is also fated to 'Black pit' (Moria? The Void?),
and something has been said about that fate,
has a throne (or final resting place?) in cold, dark stone
has some majestic quality (Royalty? The first of a type?)
has a proper name, rather than a title alone.


I am sort of wondering if I should comment at all, or let you do your brainstorming regardless where it takes you :) Your choice - ...
I'm not sure how I'd handle being in your shoes either. I'm content however you choose to respond. It's good to know you're still keeping an eye on the thread though.

.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I think I can just do the thing I do usually, and comment at least in a general way on whatever is posted here. I have said already before that earlier on, lots of very good remarks have been made earlier on this thread by some people. You might also try to find gaps in your own reasoning in there.

Ardent, your post, for instance, is a good summary, certainly making good effort to create a system in it, I should point out only that somewhere in your post, there is one assumption you make which, if you read the riddle properly from start to the end, does not really exactly reflect the whole truth. (That was very diplomatically phrased, but that's exactly what it is ;) Find for yourself. Or just ignore it and try different approaches, whichever you prefer.)

That's not to say that everything besides that one assumption is correct, but the thing I'm pointing out it something you might realise if you check with the riddle - i.e. should be able to figure out with the information you have. But again, don't spend a day trying to look for it, it isn't crucial that you get that thing right (it concerns only one of the many ways you can get to the correct answer). But if you do, it might bring some interesting revelations. Hm, I could also mention that on top of that, the topic has been touched on here earlier on.

I hope I managed to confuse you enough with this post. Apologies :Merisu:

[Morsul the Dark]

Thorin doesn't fit the riddle but fun fACT Gandalf was originally the name of thorin... Bladorthin was Gandalf's original name...

[Morsul the Dark]

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

When Merry is awakened by Tom Bombadil in the Barrow Downs he is wearing a gold circlet and says: “ The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart!”

The King of Carn Dum was the Witch King of Angmar, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul. After defeating Arnor he sent wights to inhabit Cardolan, making it a place of terror. I would expect the second speaker to be him because:
1/ his origin was in the Second Age and Angmar only arose in the Third.
2/ Angmar was cold, dark and mountainous
3/ his fate was foretold by Glofindel upon the destruction of Angmar.
4/ wanting justice his victim would have him speared through the heart.

The Barrow Downs remained and the ghost of the dead king was still there with the wights when the Hobbits were rescued by Tom. He took the dead king's blade and gave it to Merry, who used it to stab the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields.

Actually The King of Carn fits the second speaker pretty well.

Blathorthin is A
King of Carn is B

both their armies are obliterated and gone.
They were both promised something not delivered. Spears or Power(the ring)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Actually The King of Carn fits the second speaker pretty well.

Blathorthin is A
King of Carn is B

both their armies are obliterated and gone.
They were both promised something not delivered. Spears or Power(the ring)

By "King of Carn" you mean "The King of Carn Dum", i.e. that would be the Witch-King of Angmar? Do I understand it correctly?

[Morsul the Dark]

By "King of Carn" you mean "The King of Carn Dum", i.e. that would be the Witch-King of Angmar? Do I understand it correctly?

Yeah. sorry bout that

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I just wanted to clarify, because that of course is correct :) Nice job, Morsul! And, of course, means you can prepare a new riddle for us.

A clarification of the riddle, in case somebody was still wondering about various things:

I wanted to use Bladorthin as an answer. But as you can see, the only thing we know about him is summed up in the single sentence from The Hobbit, where it is said that in the dragon's hoard there were, among other things

the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for

So I thought "okay, I need to have a second speaker, who has something in common with Bladorthin, so that I can put them both into one riddle".

And that basically had to be a) a King, b) whose men were using spears. (I could have also used someone who had something to do with Dwarfs, but since the spears were such a prominent thing in Bladorthin's case, I wanted to shift my focus there, because I was sure people wouldn't remember Bladorthin as "random king who had dealings with Dwarves", but perhaps they could recall the spears, since that was the item in question.)

The missing link I found in the hallucinations by Merry at the barrow:

The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!

I was actually somewhat surprised that some of you were quoting this really early (G55 was the one who specifically mentioned it and Ardent later quoted it in full), yet then somehow it became completely forgotten. (Not to speak of that the "unnamed king" was rather unnecessary, when the "king of Carn Dûm in the land of Angmar" would have been much easier train of thought... or so I'd think...)

The rest of the riddle narrows down what we know about the two Kings: the time and the place. About the Witch-King, we know (at least as long as he was a King) that he dwelt in Carn Dûm in the land of Angmar, which is in the north (cold), in the mountains (stone) and pretty evil place for sure (dark). As for Bladorthin, we of course have no idea where he was from.

But we can figure out something about when he lived. Note the shifts in the time, which was something Nerwen briefly touched earlier. The first part of the riddle mentions that "long before me, your realm seemed to be". If you check the dates, Angmar has been defeated by the time the Dwarves of Erebor established their kingdom. But the Witch-King himself outlived (or "outdeathed") Bladorthin by quite some time. Hence, in the third part, you find in fact a contradictory statement: by the time the Witch-King meets his fate, "I am long dead". Had somebody noticed this, it might have also possibly helped to figure out something was wrong with the guy who first has a realm "long before" the second guy and then still meets his fate only after the second guy is "long dead".

I think I do not need to mention the prophecy referring to the Witch-King's demise; the "black pit" refers to the Void, or as Gandalf put it: "Go back to the abyss prepared for you!"

So, I must say, yes, I was afraid the riddle was again somewhat obscure (especially Bladorthin), but I was sort of hoping that somebody will recognize the reference to Merry's "possessed vision". And then I just hoped somebody will know Bladorthin. He's sort of an oddity, so there was the chance somebody would just know :)

But, I think this cooperative brainstorming was really nice to follow here, and I hope you enjoyed it... now, off to Morsul.

[Morsul the Dark]

Wow, that's awesome!
many thanks to Ardent!
I'm not very good at making these so here's a really really easy one.

I am know in two parts
The first would say I am the Monarchs'
The second would say I ruin evil's plans
Perchance these clues plant a thought in you?

[Ardent]

...And one more thing I could tell you for sure - both the subjects of the riddle are specific, they have their own names (so not "unnamed king of Cardolan" or such).

So what was the name of the Witch King?

[Ardent]

Wow, that's awesome!
many thanks to Ardent!
I'm not very good at making these so here's a really really easy one.

I am know in two parts
The first would say I am the Monarchs'
The second would say I ruin evil's plans
Perchance these clues plant a thought in you?

You're welcome.

Kingsfoil?

[Morsul the Dark]

:DArdent the thread is yours.

Like I said pury easy:D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And one more thing I could tell you for sure - both the subjects of the riddle are specific, they have their own names (so not "unnamed king of Cardolan" or such).So what was the name of the Witch King?

Well, The Witch-King :D I realise I wasn't very exact there, should have put more emphasis on the first part. I hope that did not completely take you off track. I merely meant to emphasise that the person is known by a name, or, well, a "name" as in, a word you can use to refer to it (as opposed to not being known at all). So not like "the guy who offers Frodo a drink" or "the sturdy dark-haired guy from the Guard of Minas Tirith", but some specific "name" - when you use it, everyone knows who you are talking about.

[Ardent]

Well, The Witch-King :D I realise I wasn't very exact there...

Hmm, a fine bit of misdirection I'd say. Good riddling talk.

:DArdent the thread is yours.

Like I said pury easy:D

Not sure what pury means but I get the gist. No, it was a good riddle 'cos my first thought was one of the banes: Isildur, Durin or Glaurung's.

I don't know if you'll see this one quickly or not. I think it's easy but I know the answer:

Left right, left right
Two are marching
Down up down up
In their searching.
Without hinges
Turning, turning
Without teacher
Learning, learning.
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound,
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve.
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.”



._ ._. _.. . _. _

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At least not on first sight, for sure. My first thoughts were something like "stars" (some particular ones? Borgil. But that would not do, since they are supposed to be two), or maybe some precious stones (again, I thought Silmarils, but there are three of them, and only one is performing some motion worth mentioning, the two others are lost somewhere). The "learning" part does not make sense with either of them, though, so I am pretty sure it must be something else.

Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.
Is this supposed to mean that when I bow my head, I see the thing(s)? That would basically rule out the stars, unless one has eyes on the back of his head. It really looks like some sort of gems or somesuch (which one could see when looking at the ground). Especially with the "delving" part.

Though it says "our treasures delve", so we are not the treasures. "We" could be, for instance, caves in which treasures are found, but not the treasures themselves. Unless it is, again, completely metaphorical.

What confuses me also is that while at the start there are "two", in the last part, there is certainly only "one" (twice red am "I", not "we").

The most logical answer would be Sun (the two being Sun and Moon, or Arien and Tilion, or what have you), we know how they get up at the Gates of Morning and set down at the Doors of Night (Black Pit?). The leaves part could refer to the (dead) Two Trees out of whose blossom/fruit the Sun and Moon were made. Sun could be red, of course, why not, but what does not really fit there is the "learning" (unless it's there just to rhyme), the "delving" (Dwarves and Elves and Men don't really dig the Sun), and also the part I quoted above, with the eyes on the back of one's head...

And certainly does not explain the "twice red".

I guess the answer is elsewhere, but right now I can't think of anything more.

[Ardent]

...What confuses me also is that while at the start there are "two", in the last part, there is certainly only "one" (twice red am "I", not "we")...
Well 'I' am speaking for 'us' my precious, and without 'me' you wouldn't know 'us'.

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmm, a fine bit of misdirection I'd say. Good riddling talk.



Not sure what pury means but I get the gist. No, it was a good riddle 'cos my first thought was one of the banes: Isildur, Durin or Glaurung's.

I don't know if you'll see this one quickly or not. I think it's easy but I know the answer:

Left right, left right
Two are marching
Down up down up
In their searching.
Without hinges
Turning, turning
Without teacher
Learning, learning.
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound,
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve.
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.”



._ ._. _.. . _. _

I meant "purty" like pretty easy

...As for your riddle. makes me think of waves and water...

[Ardent]

...As for your riddle. makes me think of waves and water...

What is it that reminds you of water?
I can tell you it's not fishesess.


._ ._. _.. . _. _

[Morsul the Dark]

I know water isn't the answer just the whole first verse sounds like waves updown up down left righ left right, always learning always searching.

Water always finds the easiest path between two points aand can make its way anyware even into the depths of the earth.

and reflects the sky red sky at dusk and dawn equals red water...

Still trying to think of a real answer that was just my first impression is all.

[Galadriel55]

The first verse kind of reminds me of Frodo and Sam's twists and turns in the Emyn Muil. Walking in circles, doubling back the way they came, trying to find a path that would lead them to Mordor. And they're hobbits, so to see them you have to look down.

The other two verses don't fit at all, though.

[Ardent]

The first verse kind of reminds me of Frodo and Sam's twists and turns in the Emyn Muil. Walking in circles, doubling back the way they came, trying to find a path that would lead them to Mordor. And they're hobbits, so to see them you have to look down.

The other two verses don't fit at all, though.
Ah, hobbitses are among the worst for looking down on us.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ah, hobbitses are among the worst for looking down on us.

Hobbitses looking down on you? Then it can't be gems or precious metals. What else does a Hobbit look down on? Something one can "delve"?

Taters.

:D

But really, no clue.

[Ardent]

Hobbitses looking down on you? Then it can't be gems or precious metals. What else does a Hobbit look down on? Something one can "delve"?

Taters.

:D

But really, no clue.

No, not taters. Among Hobbits taters, like gardeners, are held in high esteem. There are always exceptions that test a rule, but in "my" case it is the exception you should look for.

[Galadriel55]

What else can be red? The Book of Westmarch!

Seriously, I have no more clue than Legate. :p

Edit: hey, twice red could be red and read. And to delve could mean to read its history (in which most of the hobbits are uninterested). And it's leaves are of course paper leaves. Maybe this guess is more serious than I first thought.

[Ardent]

What else can be red? The Book of Westmarch!

Seriously, I have no more clue than Legate. :p

Edit: hey, twice red could be red and read. And to delve could mean to read its history (in which most of the hobbits are uninterested). And it's leaves are of course paper leaves. Maybe this guess is more serious than I first thought.

Indeed! So what about the "us"?

[Galadriel55]

Indeed! So what about the "us"?

Left right, left right
Two are marching - I guess that's speaking about two eyes?
Down up down up
In their searching. - up and down a page, I guess
Without hinges
Turning, turning - huh? At first I thought this could be referring to pages that turn without hinges, but then I also thought it's talking about eyes...
Without teacher
Learning, learning. - right, since they read
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us. - unless the book is on the ceiling, this is pretty much accurate.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound, - what on earth?
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen. - this part is more or less clear, refering to the leafs of a book.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve. - delve the books' knowledge?
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.” - the read Red Book


So I suppose my answer is Books, or texts, but to be honest I'm very confused. Other than what I had in my previous post I'm still clueless.

[Mithalwen]

If you are right Gally, Moria is the Black Pit and where the Book of Marzarbul is found. Of course bound can refer to a book's binding as well as destiny.

[Ardent]

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound, - what on earth?
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen. - this part is more or less clear, refering to the leafs of a book.
...


So I suppose my answer is Books, or texts, but to be honest I'm very confused. Other than what I had in my previous post I'm still clueless.

I'd say you got all the clues bar 2:
As you deduced, the whole first section is describing how we read a book (unless it's written in Hebrew or Chinese, but they're not ME writing systems).
As Mithalwen says The Black Pit is Moria and the Book of Marzarbul is found with its binding slashed and burned.
Faramir says that what brought Gandalf to Minas Anor was the treasury with its "...many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone, and leaves of silver and of gold, in divers characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them..."
After leaving the Long-Expected Party it was in these books that Gandalf learned of the fiery letters which Isildur saw on the Ring while it was hot, but he did not share this secret with anyone until arriving back at Bag End.

[Galadriel55]

Wait... so did I get the answer correctly?

If yes, I'll need a day or two to come up with something.

[Galadriel55]

Pshhh, I realized now that all this time I'e been reading Anor as Arnor. :rolleyes:

Anyways, since I guess that makes me the next riddler, I came up with this mess that is either incredibly easy or incredibly obscure.


In three different places
We ride different steeds,
From three different races
We hail with great deeds.

I have not met you
For you've gone away;
Though one may have been here,
'Twas not in my day.

Both I and the other
Look just like the first:
Our eyes are afire
As we charge headfirst.

I and the other
Are kings of renown;
The first is a lord
Yet he wears not a crown.

To the foe rides the other;
I ride toward friends;
The first - once great traveller, -
Now stays in his lands.

Blue is other's colour
And my shield is gold.
Our horns call for battle
Like the first's did of old.

Happy riddling!

[Mithalwen]

Oromë, Fingolfin and Theoden.the latter were both kongs compared to first in their final batyles. Beautiful clue.

[Galadriel55]

Oh my! I've forgotten I even wrote that riddle!

But indeed the answer is that trio. Your turn, Mith!

[Mithalwen]

Hard act to follow...

[Ivriniel]

Hard act to follow...

Erm, Ulmo and vassals, Osse and Uinen :)

[Galadriel55]

Erm, Ulmo and vassals, Osse and Uinen :)

ummm... huh?

But thanks for reviving the thread!

[Ivriniel]

ummm... huh?

But thanks for reviving the thread!

Oh, I read ur signature --

WE are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams

I responded to that as though a riddle - hahahah

[Ivriniel]

I'll revive with a riddle :)

Two Gems and Two Suns
Not Two Stories but Three
Where now is Aragorn with his White Tree

--what am I?--

I want, not only 'what I am', but a response that references the number of 'stories'.

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps the Elessar? Three stories of its origin (if my memory serves me right), and one of them involves the making of a second stone by Celebrimbor, hence the two stones.

[Ivriniel]

Perhaps the Elessar? Three stories of its origin (if my memory serves me right), and one of them involves the making of a second stone by Celebrimbor, hence the two stones.

YES! That's well good enough. *High Five* :)

There's a discrepancy in UT about the story, where text reads words to the effect "and not even the wise know which is true".

Under one, Olorin (and his name is used that way, to imply, perhaps, some pre-Istari visit to Middle Earth), where he met with Galadriel in Amon Lanc (before it was Dol Guldur) and he bore her what was implied to be that stone crafted by a smith of Gondolin, Enerdhil, gifted to Idril, then to Earendil, and borne unto the uttermost west. Apparently, Gandalf bore it back to give to Galadriel, to comfort her during her labours. In that story, for a time, the stone did make the Elven harbour in Beleriand 'Valinor-ish' (but in the Silmarillion, this is attributed to the presence of the Silmaril). In the second story, Celebrimbor, smitten by Galadriel, makes the Elessar, as a gift for her labours, before the Mirdain make The Three. In this story, the stone does not have as much joo joo (and text notes that was due to Melkor's influence, from The Void, where he affected the Sun, and so, it was not 'as new' as of old, limiting the Elessar's potency).

"Not Two Stories, but Three"

1. As told in UT, with two renditions, without the reconciliation with
2. The third part of the two stories, in The Silmarillion--where we're given the idea that it was The Silmaril that greened the Elven Harbour, not the Elessar, and so, a means to resolve story discrepancies. AND - Aragorn's Elessar, were it that crafted by Enerdhil--would have greened the environs around Minas Tirith far more fully than his Elessar apparently did.....

So--unusual for Tolkien--TWO in text stories, with a deliberate variation "not even the wise know" and the third 'story' --ours-- which is the interpretations of the Tomes and what they reveal out-of-text/story

[Galadriel55]

Aw, darn. Now I have to come up with something clever.

Give me a couple days...

[Galadriel55]

My lord, my lord, how fairest thou?
What crown now sits on your high brow?
Do you live in a good accord
With your own life, my lord?

Alas, my lady, I was maimed,
My land is in decay.
Though not at me their arrows aimed,
They struck me down the same.

My sight was halved, but I could see
What ridicule they've made of me.
Their words are foul and shady,
But I bear them, my lady.

But who am I to so complain?
I see you've suffered no less pain.
They may as well have struck you dead
And put a monster in your stead.

Aye, aye, my lord, that monster's foul,
It's teeth do gleam so when it scowls,
At night it twists its leering head.
It looks like it is living dead.

We both are gone, we both are torn,
But one day we may be reborn,
And in a good land once more dwell,
Although we different flowers smell.

My lady, you're remembered well -
I speak now to your memory -
But I alone in silence dwell,
And who remembers me?



Please answer all the parts of the riddle (or as many as you can, with a proper explanation). Happy riddling!

[Ivriniel]

My lord, my lord, how fairest thou?
What crown now sits on your high brow?
Do you live in a good accord
With your own life, my lord?

Alas, my lady, I was maimed,
My land is in decay.
Though not at me their arrows aimed,
They struck me down the same.

My sight was halved, but I could see
What ridicule they've made of me.
Their words are foul and shady,
But I bear them, my lady.

But who am I to so complain?
I see you've suffered no less pain.
They may as well have struck you dead
And put a monster in your stead.

Aye, aye, my lord, that monster's foul,
It's teeth do gleam so when it scowls,
At night it twists its leering head.
It looks like it is living dead.

We both are gone, we both are torn,
But one day we may be reborn,
And in a good land once more dwell,
Although we different flowers smell.

My lady, you're remembered well -
I speak now to your memory -
But I alone in silence dwell,
And who remembers me?



Please answer all the parts of the riddle (or as many as you can, with a proper explanation). Happy riddling!

:) I'm really not at all sure, but I don't know why Morgoth and Sauron come to mind. The crown on the brow - silmarils on the iron crown. Then that stuff about lands in decay. Mordor. And halved sight, seems like the Lidless Eye with the Palantir. The stuff about the undead and all the Necromancy of Sauron and then funny smelling (stinky) flowers in good lands. "seem fair but feel foul". Morgoth in the Void, who promises to return for the Last Battle.

[Galadriel55]

Good guess, but no. :)

And halved sight, seems like the Lidless Eye with the Palantir.

Would his site not be doubled with the Palantir?


The answer is more obscure than the two major villains in the history of ME. Significantly more obscure, but not ridiculously so. And remember, one of them is called Lady.

[Mithalwen]

I think one might be the statue of the king on the journey to the crossroads whose head has been replaced by a stone with a single eye and is covered with orcish graffitti. His proper head has a crown of flowers. For the other, a lot fits with the description of Minas Morgul, the once lovely Minas Ithil, which has a tower whose top turns, described as ghostly, undead and with putrid smelling flowers.

Many remember Minas Ithil but the king is unnamed. Only thing that doesn't really fit is Lady. Though I think cities are sometimes referred to as she.

[Ivriniel]

Only 'Lady' i can think of is Galadriel. Somehow Celeborn and Galadriel don't fit. "Lady" -- Goldberry if I stretch it. All that stuff about 'maiming' could be hueing of trees and limiting of Bombadil's realm.

Eyes and sight halved? No idea at all. :)

Manwe's sight comes to mind for the reference to vision. But, I don't recall it ever being halved or limited, unless I stretch it - say the Straight Road and his vision and so on. Sounds ridiculous - hahaha and I'm chuckling as I'm writing.

[Galadriel55]

I think one might be the statue of the king on the journey to the crossroads whose head has been replaced by a stone with a single eye and is covered with orcish graffitti. His proper head has a crown of flowers. For the other, a lot fits with the description of Minas Morgul, the once lovely Minas Ithil, which has a tower whose top turns, described as ghostly, undead and with putrid smelling flowers.

Many remember Minas Ithil but the king is unnamed. Only thing that doesn't really fit is Lady. Though I think cities are sometimes referred to as she.

That's the one! ;) Or the two. Whatever. That's spot on! Well done!

Eyes and sight halved? No idea at all. :)

The king statue had two eyes, but his head was replaced with a boulder with only one eye.

[Ivriniel]

Eowyn. Frosty. Like a flower frozen by frost. before it wilts at the thaw.

[Mithalwen]

Huh? I though5 I had solved this? Will get my clue up over weekend probably.

[Ivriniel]

Huh? I though5 I had solved this? Will get my clue up over weekend probably.

:)

[Mithalwen]

Everyone knows me.
Last and first was I.
Nobody knows me.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers,
The rings on other fingers.

[Ivriniel]

Everyone knows me.
Last and first was I.
Nobody knows me.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers,
The rings on other fingers.

wasn't that tom bombadil (last first) or else eru

[Mithalwen]

Not Bombadil or Eru. Neither of whom fit the rest of the riddle. :D

[Galadriel55]

Is it your fav?

Everyone knows me. - duh, High King.
Last and first was I. - Last of the High Kings (whose realm was fair and free between the Mountains and the Sea et cetera), first of... I dunno.
Nobody knows me. - no clue.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers, - Gildy Galdy was an Elven Thing of whom the harpies madly sing...
The rings on other fingers. - Elrond's and Gandalf's.

[Ivriniel]

Is it your fav?

Everyone knows me. - duh, High King.
Last and first was I. - Last of the High Kings (whose realm was fair and free between the Mountains and the Sea et cetera), first of... I dunno.
Nobody knows me. - no clue.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers, - Gildy Galdy was an Elven Thing of whom the harpies madly sing...
The rings on other fingers. - Elrond's and Gandalf's.

Makes sense :)

Memory Lingers: ...
Last and First was I (first Elvish High King of Nolor born in Middle Earth? Turgon was a Valinor-head wasn't he)
Nobody knows me: as Ereinion?
Noble Light on High: That spear thingy he had that shone like the brightest star stuff, whatever, or like that. High as in 'oven is on high' hahaha :o

[Mithalwen]

Yep, poor love was rather incinerated. First king in lindon and to be High King of Eldar not just Noldor iirc.

Nobody knows me... Not even Tolkien himself seems to have come to a definitive conclusion as to who his Daddy was , which is unusual for a king... he was a relatively early character whose first appearancw was circa 1936 and thirty odd years later he has wandered through the three houses of Finwë's sons ending up maybe as Orodreth's but in the circumstances I am not sure last word wouldhave been final. Christopher admitted he probably made a mistake assigning him tp Fingon from a single note but it seemed the simplest option at the time. I sometimes wonder if the name Ereinion was a joke referring to the indescision... I digress

Noble light on high.... Gil-galad , means starlight. His quenya name is Artanaro, noble flame.

So despite her lack of respect for my beloved, the thread is back to Galadriel

[Galadriel55]

So despite her lack of respect for my beloved, the thread is back to Galadriel

It was all said with great love and in good humor. ;)

Anyways, will think of something within the next week.

[Mithalwen]

This harpy forgives you...

[Galadriel55]

Ack! I completely forgot about this!

If someone has a riddle ready, feel free to post it. If not, I'll get something up in the net day or two.

[Ivriniel]

Ack! I completely forgot about this!

If someone has a riddle ready, feel free to post it. If not, I'll get something up in the net day or two.

I could post one, but i'll way to see urs. I like this thread :)

[Galadriel55]

I could post one, but i'll way to see urs. I like this thread :)

As you wish. ;)

Where she dwells with silence
A single man abides.
Though she's no great hostess
She will let you inside.

You are a man of stature,
You are among the best,
And here, inside her kingdom,
You will lie down to rest.

Unless you be her servant,
Her soldier or her slave,
She will not let you exit
To see the world again.

Happy riddling!

[Ivriniel]

As you wish. ;)

Where she dwells with silence
A single man abides.
Though she's no great hostess
She will let you inside.

You are a man of stature,
You are among the best,
And here, inside her kingdom,
You will lie down to rest.

Unless you be her servant,
Her soldier or her slave,
She will not let you exit
To see the world again.

Happy riddling!

hahaha - I'm so 'person/creature-centric' with these things. I don't know why, but 'Shelob' keeps coming to mind.

Is it she?

[Ivriniel]

...or else, The One Ring - though that doesn't sit well with the 'she' thing. Maybe Gollum (when he lived in Misty Mountains--with The Ring)....

The Sun? No that's not right either....

[Galadriel55]

hahaha - I'm so 'person/creature-centric' with these things. I don't know why, but 'Shelob' keeps coming to mind.

Is it she?

When I was making the riddle, I thought Shelob would be one of the wrong guesses. ;) Keep trying. :)

And no, neither Sun nor Ring.

It would be better if you tried going line by line and tried to explain what each one means in the context of your guess. Then I can point out some important details that you may have overlooked in your solution.

And no, don't be so person/creature-centric. Don't discriminate against the inanimate objects. :p (And finally, for the record, you know by now that I use nth-person pronouns very loosely.)

[Ivriniel]

As you wish. ;)

Where she dwells with silence
A single man abides.
Though she's no great hostess
She will let you inside.

I'm thinking Minas Tirith, and where the dead Kings are laid to rest.

You are a man of stature,
You are among the best,
And here, inside her kingdom,
You will lie down to rest.

So, that's gotta be the Heir of Isildur--King of Gondor/Arnor (reunited Kingdom)

Unless you be her servant,
Her soldier or her slave,
She will not let you exit
To see the world again.

Happy riddling!

So, that's gotta be reference to the Guard of the City, or reference to the loyal of The King

?? :)

[Mithalwen]

Rath Dinen is the silent street but a city wouldn't have a single resident. If a city I suppose Gondolin didn't let folk out and had one man as opposed to elf resident. But the silence doesn't fit then,

[Galadriel55]

Yeee-eeees.... please continue..... ;)


You're getting there. You're actually very close. But, as Mith said, any city is too big. So something much smaller, but also in the right location?...

[Ivriniel]

Yeee-eeees.... please continue..... ;)


You're getting there. You're actually very close. But, as Mith said, any city is too big. So something much smaller, but also in the right location?...

....ah, :) hmm, okay, *scratches head* --

a barrow wight - it's got all the 'king' stuff, and all the creepy unwelcoming things. A single resident that can move about...?

[Ivriniel]

Or else, the Paths of the Dead and the Erech.....

[Galadriel55]

No and no. You were much closer with Minas Tirith and Rath Dinen.

[Ivriniel]

The Palantir in the Tower of the Guard....

Where she dwells with silence
A single man abides.
Though she's no great hostess
She will let you inside.

The palantir

You are a man of stature,
You are among the best,
And here, inside her kingdom,
You will lie down to rest.

The King - or else - Denethor on the pyre with the Palantir

Unless you be her servant,
Her soldier or her slave,
She will not let you exit
To see the world again.

Only one of great will would see anything but hands clinging onto a palantir, wreathed in fire...

[Mithalwen]

The Paths of the Deadl there was the body scratching at the door of the son of the Rohirric king of the time?

[Galadriel55]

Nope. But I thought Paths of the Dead would also be a potential answer.

Palantir is way off. It doesn't actually do most of the things in the riddle. Especially the line that says "inside her kingdom". Kingdom might be metaphorical, yes, but inside it? Denethor never lied down to rest within the palantir, or even its "kingdom". The "inside" is more important than you might think - more important than the kingdom. ;)

[Ivriniel]

Nope. But I thought Paths of the Dead would also be a potential answer.

Palantir is way off. It doesn't actually do most of the things in the riddle. Especially the line that says "inside her kingdom". Kingdom might be metaphorical, yes, but inside it? Denethor never lied down to rest within the palantir, or even its "kingdom". The "inside" is more important than you might think - more important than the kingdom. ;)

Okay *smiles* now I'm muddled :) erm, I'm gunna need some help....

I've explored ideas about location (Rath Dinen), versus a metaphoric adaptation of 'city/space' (a Palantir as a psychological 'realm') and also, a blending of the two (Barrow Wights. That guess melded ideas about 'slavery' [necromantic invasion of barrows] with 'kingship' [because a barrow was a burial site for Kings of northern kingdom]. This was the attempt to reconcile ideas about slavery, service, kingship and duty. (Poem refers to this).

so, I got that Rath Dinen was kinda close-ish, and that the Palantir was off base implying that 'space' or 'city' was not where u've adapted metaphoric licence. I tried 'palantir' to test that theory. Cause a palantir has a very vast psychological realm in semi-conscious entity, and capacity to 'hold' or 'steer' the viewer (slavery concept) and where a King (man of stature) can 'override'. If u say 'she' means something else, then, easily, I saw that 'realm' could have been 'of the mind space' (I'm a shrink, so that one kinda came to me very naturally. I see every human as having an entire realmspace and universe)....

I also get that u've used 'she' broadly, and it seems from ur comments, to imply some kind of literal, actual, geographical space or locale...? So 'she' means location, is how I've interpreted.

Is that correct? That is, are we looking at an actual, literal place or location. Or--alternatively -- something else?

Cheers (I'm enjoying this, btw - thanx for posting....when I nail the riddle, am gunna ponder something in kind :) )

kind regards

[Mithalwen]

An actual barrow rather than the wight? They were the tombs of kings... but leaves too much to explain.

[Ivriniel]

Or the Barrow Downs.

If Rath Dinen was closer - perhaps ur seeking another locale within Minas Anor?

[Galadriel55]

Okay *smiles* now I'm muddled :) erm, I'm gunna need some help....

I've explored ideas about location (Rath Dinen), versus a metaphoric adaptation of 'city/space' (a Palantir as a psychological 'realm') and also, a blending of the two (Barrow Wights. That guess melded ideas about 'slavery' [necromantic invasion of barrows] with 'kingship' [because a barrow was a burial site for Kings of northern kingdom]. This was the attempt to reconcile ideas about slavery, service, kingship and duty. (Poem refers to this).

so, I got that Rath Dinen was kinda close-ish, and that the Palantir was off base implying that 'space' or 'city' was not where u've adapted metaphoric licence. I tried 'palantir' to test that theory. Cause a palantir has a very vast psychological realm in semi-conscious entity, and capacity to 'hold' or 'steer' the viewer (slavery concept) and where a King (man of stature) can 'override'. If u say 'she' means something else, then, easily, I saw that 'realm' could have been 'of the mind space' (I'm a shrink, so that one kinda came to me very naturally. I see every human as having an entire realmspace and universe)....

I also get that u've used 'she' broadly, and it seems from ur comments, to imply some kind of literal, actual, geographical space or locale...? So 'she' means location, is how I've interpreted.

Is that correct? That is, are we looking at an actual, literal place or location. Or--alternatively -- something else?

Cheers (I'm enjoying this, btw - thanx for posting....when I nail the riddle, am gunna ponder something in kind :) )

kind regards

Ok, in short -

If Rath Dinen was closer - perhaps ur seeking another locale within Minas Anor?

Yes.

Rath Dinen was much closer than either of you realize. Don't go hunting after wights and palantirs.

Yes, it is a location.

Note - it's the slave/servant that's free, and the man of stature who remains inside.

The "kingdom" is very small. Like a "pretty small fraction of a city" small.

Hope this helps.

[Mithalwen]

Could it be the pyre of Denethor l

[Galadriel55]

No, not the pyre. This is colder than Rath Dinen, but still not too far.

[Ivriniel]

Ok, in short -



Yes.

Rath Dinen was much closer than either of you realize. Don't go hunting after wights and palantirs.

Yes, it is a location.

Note - it's the slave/servant that's free, and the man of stature who remains inside.

The "kingdom" is very small. Like a "pretty small fraction of a city" small.

Hope this helps.

*cheeky smile* - ah, now I understand - my character is someone that's not quite a prescriptive - and so I took 'rath dinen' as generally encompassing of ''good enough" and got side-saddled into a palantir-ic diversion :)

So - here's what I reckon, then:

Rath Dinen, the silent street, that precedes access to Mindolluin! Kings and such, are on the far side of Fen Hollen. So, I'd say that ur speaking of that.

Stewards (for those servants also free) and Kings (I suppose people's servants too in a way), or else ur speakin' about that white tree thingy that was of Galathilion, originally, of Teleperion.

will that do?

[Galadriel55]

You're literally stepping on the answer, just now quite nailing it. Think about this: "Where she dwells with silence". Silence was correctly identified as Rath Dinen. Who is she?

Yet another hint: you already know the answer, just say it as the answer. :)

[Ivriniel]

You're literally stepping on the answer, just now quite nailing it. Think about this: "Where she dwells with silence". Silence was correctly identified as Rath Dinen. Who is she?

Yet another hint: you already know the answer, just say it as the answer. :)

hahahaha - ur a hard task master! I might just get all adolescent and rebel by claiming victory.....

Rath Dinen is [[[The ***silent*** street]]]