Riddles in the Downs

[Pervinca Took]

Yes.

Prepared in anticipation
But not for their end
Of noble sacrifice.

Well, what I'm looking for were prepared, but not to be sacrificed. But then they were.

Gollum sacrificed the rabbits, but didn't prepare them. In my riddle, the same person has to do both.

New page.

[Urwen]

Animals of some kind?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

[Urwen]

Herbs from 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' chapter?

[Pervinca Took]

Wrong book.

[Urwen]

From the Hobbit, then? There is a chapter titled 'Roast Mutton'.

[Pervinca Took]

Right book. Earlier.

[Urwen]

The dishes? Or seed-cakes?

[Pervinca Took]

It's the seed-cakes. (Prepared by Bilbo for his after-supper morsel, but given in the end to the first dwarf who arrived at his home).

Over to you!

[Urwen]

I will make a riddle, but I am not sure whether anyone would even try answering. I practically had to beg people to solve my last two.....

[Urwen]

I have to go on an errand, and I'll make one when I get back. But please try to solve it, people. It's no fun otherwise. :smokin:

[Urwen]

This one is inspired by one of Nerwen's recent riddles.

Love for two people tore me
The one I loved abandoned me
Those I didn't know tried to save me
My corrupted kin slew me.

[Pervinca Took]

Gwindor?

(Don't hit me. I don't know 1st Age as well as you).

[Urwen]

Close, but no cigar. It's that person whom Gwindor loved.

[Pervinca Took]

But orcs slew Finduilas, and Turin slew himself.

[Urwen]

But orcs slew Finduilas, and Turin slew himself.

Exactly. Orcs are corrupted Elves, hence they are corrupted kind to Finduilas (and other Elves)

[Pervinca Took]

Ah, I see!

Cleverer than a sentient seed-cake. :)

[Urwen]

A bit of additional explanation

Love for two people tore me - Gwindor and Turin
The one I loved abandoned me - Turin
Those I didn't know tried to save me - Dorlas and co.
My corrupted kin slew me. - already explained

Your go.

[Pervinca Took]

I took them both
But left their son;
Ask not of me
Why this was done.

[Urwen]

Interesting. I assume this is another of your silly riddles.


If so, that fox? :p

[Pervinca Took]

Not this time ;)

In which volume of HOME does the fox eat anyone? ;)

[Urwen]

A cat, then?

[Urwen]

And the only real couple mentioned in HoME along with an animal are Beren and Luthien, who had a son, Dior.

[Urwen]

I don't have HoME. :(

[Pervinca Took]

It is not in HOME. You had the right book to begin with. I was just joking about how it couldn't be the fox and there isn't even an obscure reference anywhere in HOME that says it was.

[Urwen]

The Brandywine river?

I took them both - According to the talk in the beginning, some believe that she pushed him and he pulled her with him; others say he is responsible, but the true culprit is the river itself.
But left their son; - well, it did
Ask not of me
Why this was done.

[Pervinca Took]

The Brandywine river?

I took them both - According to the talk in the beginning, some believe that she pushed him and he pulled her with him; others say he is responsible, but the true culprit is the river itself.
But left their son; - well, it did
Ask not of me
Why this was done.

Correct!

And don't ask the Brandywine why Frodo wasn't in the boat but his parents were and had to die. No doubt Frodo was just 'meant' to be orphaned and adopted by an uncle who owned a demonic piece of bling.

Your turn!

[Urwen]

Another parent-esque riddle

In the land of light
I was laid to rest on that day
I created a being of great might
But the price was to fade away

Yet I was content
He would be renowned
My life was spent
I was laid to rest in a mound

My choices I do not regret
For he is someone they won't forget
Even so, I sometimes wish
That he has stayed in this land's bliss

Alas, different was his fate
Driven by his ire
And now it's too late
Fire shall die by fire

[Pervinca Took]

A beautiful poem, Urwen. :)

But every line screams Miriel, laid to rest in Valinor, talking of Feanor, so the answer comes very quickly (unless there is some trick or subterfuge and it's something else!)

[Urwen]

Yes, indeed. I wanted to use 'fire died by fire' line, and I then remembered the talks I've had on discord.

[Pervinca Took]

Hear it speak,
Hear it squeak,
But no, it doesn't neekerbreek.

[Urwen]

Troll's purse?

[Pervinca Took]

Correct!

[Urwen]

For this I was fated
I will go on and on
Even if I must be hated
This shall be done

I will take what is mine
I will mow my enemies down
I will keep them all in line
And seize me that crown!

[Huinesoron]

For this I was fated
I will go on and on
Even if I must be hated
This shall be done

I will take what is mine
I will mow my enemies down
I will keep them all in line
And seize me that crown!

Ar-Pharazon.

Or Aragorn.

hS

[Urwen]

Phary is the answer. Told you it was easy.

[Huinesoron]

Turn ye back and seek for me
South of the woodland dell
Amid the dark and murksome trees
Guarding the road to Hell

A friend to all, afeared of none
Dealer in wings to those who'd fly
A fool or wise man - either one
Riddle me this: who am I?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is it Radagast?

[Huinesoron]

Is it Radagast?

It is. Why?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Turn ye back and seek for me
South of the woodland dell
Amid the dark and murksome trees
Guarding the road to Hell

Unfortunately, my geography is pants. Rhosgobel is near Beorn's, isn't it?

A friend to all, afeared of none - no enemies I can think of
Dealer in wings to those who'd fly - friend to birds and beasts
A fool or wise man - either one - Radagast the Fool! / accounted one of the Wise.

[Huinesoron]

Turn ye back and seek for me
South of the woodland dell
Amid the dark and murksome trees
Guarding the road to Hell

Unfortunately, my geography is pants. Rhosgobel is near Beorn's, isn't it?

A friend to all, afeared of none - no enemies I can think of
Dealer in wings to those who'd fly - friend to birds and beasts
A fool or wise man - either one - Radagast the Fool! / accounted one of the Wise.

It's sort of between Beorn's and Dol Guldur, which was what those lines were aiming at.

Over to you, then. :)

[Pervinca Took]

Which is the woodland dell? Is that bit literally chez Beorn?

Are the murksome trees Mirkwood?

Is 'Hell' Dol Guldur?

[Huinesoron]

Which is the woodland dell? Is that bit literally chez Beorn?

Are the murksome trees Mirkwood?

Is 'Hell' Dol Guldur?

I was mostly looking for a rhyme, but Bilbo and company trek through a broad valley (that leads Bilbo to declare the forest goes on forever); that's what I was thinking of.

Mirkwood and Dol Guldur, precisely.

hS

[Urwen]

I would insert a comment here, but people are angry at me for it, so I'll just talk about my dog instead.

[Pervinca Took]

I'm mostly silent.
I may sound Spanish.
But hitch a ride with me
And see your problems vanish!

[Urwen]

Huan? Huan sounds like a Spanish name, and he helped Luthien.

[Pervinca Took]

Yes!

I thought it up the moment I read your post mentioning your dog. ;)

[Urwen]

Last remnant of the fallen line
Lost in the rivers of time
A crafty soul, like my grandfather
My courage will never falter

The one I trusted deceived me
Which I could plainly see
In secret I used my craft
And with that, the die was cast

Why did I do this, you ask
Knowing it would mean my death?
In truth, I was up for this last task
Knowing that I'll join my family once I drew my final breath

[Pervinca Took]

Celebrimbor?

'Crafty' referring to art.

Last of Feanor's line ... unless anyone's seen Maglor lately.

[Urwen]

Yup.

[Urwen]

Your turn, in case it wasn't clear enough.

[Pervinca Took]

So insufficient
So very pale
Racked with work to gain
At which I dared not fail.

[Urwen]

Grima Wormtongue aka Lomion 2.0?

[Pervinca Took]

Good reasoning, but no.

[Urwen]

Gollum?

[Pervinca Took]

No. You'd have to really stretch those lines to apply them to Gollum.

[Urwen]

But your hint implies him......

[Pervinca Took]

No, it implies hobbitlike things/priorities.

[Urwen]

Mushrooms?

[Pervinca Took]

Closer, but no.

[Urwen]

Hobbit priorities are food and things that grow.

[Pervinca Took]

It is a food item, but it doesn't grow. It's made/prepared.

[Urwen]

Lembas bread?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

Close, though.

I put 'pale' to make the riddle a little harder. I might have said 'white.'

[Urwen]

Earth-bread?

[Pervinca Took]

You mean Mim's stuff? No.

[Urwen]

Cram, then?



Or Cramsome bread?

[Pervinca Took]

No.

Think of somewhere where there wasn't as much food as a hobbit desired.

Not in the Wild.

[Urwen]

Minas Tirith, the White City?

[Pervinca Took]

Right place.

So what's the food item?

[Urwen]

White cakes?

[Pervinca Took]

Yes, the white cakes Pippin has to endure all that questioning for.

Over to you!

[Urwen]

You'll like this one. ;)

I married someone
From a different clan
Our creation
The carrier of One

Some say I caused our demise
Some say it was he
Whatever the case may be
The truth shall remain a mystery

[Pervinca Took]

That's Primula talking. ;)

[Urwen]

You win a virtual cookie, and the right to write a new riddle.

[Urwen]

Can you make the riddle now?

[Pervinca Took]

A tripling of splendour
A tripling of glamour
Given with a blessing
And received with a stammer.

[Huinesoron]

A tripling of splendour
A tripling of glamour
Given with a blessing
And received with a stammer.

I mean, it was a pretty delayed put-down, but 'I wouldn't give Feanor a single one of my hairs, but you, you squat bearded creature, you can have three!' remains classic despite that.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I mean, it was a pretty delayed put-down, but 'I wouldn't give Feanor a single one of my hairs, but you, you squat bearded creature, you can have three!' remains classic despite that.

hS

Mandos might actually be sadistic enough to tell him, too!

Your turn. :)

[Urwen]

I thought you didn't partake in this game? :p

[Huinesoron]

I do not sit, enthroned on mountain's bones,
But I remember.
I do not light the sky with stars that fly,
But I remember.
I do not stand alone, as grey as stone,
But I remember--

--and I speak.

hS

[Urwen]

Gurthang?

[Huinesoron]

Gurthang?

Nope.

hS

[Urwen]

The Palantir of Orthanc? It speaks by allowing Sauron and Saruman to communicate.

[Urwen]

Or it could be Maglor's Silmaril, but the third stanza doesn't fit.

[Urwen]

I do not sit, enthroned on mountain's bones,
But I remember. - One lies with Maedhros in earth's core
I do not light the sky with stars that fly,
But I remember. - One with Earendil, in the sky
I do not stand alone, as grey as stone,
But I remember-- The last one in the ocean, and it's not alone, because there are two others like it, and they are a memory of the ancient past as a whole

[Huinesoron]

You're quite right that it doesn't fit. :) That's because it's not the answer.

hS

[Urwen]

But only the Silmarils fit the second stanza. :confused:

[Pervinca Took]

The second couplet. ;) (There's only one stanza).

[Huinesoron]

But only the Silmarils fit the second stanza. :confused:

That you've thought of so far, yes.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

All I can think of is an Oliphaunt ....

[Huinesoron]

All I can think of is an Oliphaunt ....

Which is relevant to the riddle.

But isn't the answer.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Not Fastitocalon?

[Huinesoron]

Not Fastitocalon?

Nope.

The whole riddle ties together; I'm not just naming random things the answer isn't.

hS

[Urwen]

I think there is a reason the word remember is underlined.


For this reason, I think the answer is Treebeard, who once said he remembers the older days i.e First Age.

[Huinesoron]

I think there is a reason the word remember is underlined.


For this reason, I think the answer is Treebeard, who once said he remembers the older days i.e First Age.

Good thought, but no.

The formatting is for emphasis, rather than because any particular word is special.

hS

[Urwen]

Is it a living thing?

[Urwen]

Troll's purse?


There are only so few speaking things, and the whole riddle seems to point at trolls.

[Huinesoron]

Is it a living thing?

Yes.

Troll's purse?

There are only so few speaking things, and the whole riddle seems to point at trolls.

Trolls are relevant to the riddle, but this (and they) are/is not the answer.

hS

[Urwen]

You said both trolls and Oliphaunts are relevant? Giants? Gigantic things?

[Huinesoron]

You said both trolls and Oliphaunts are relevant? Giants? Gigantic things?

I did say that, and I meant it. It has nothing to do with their size, though.

hS

[Urwen]

Then does it have to do with their color?

[Huinesoron]

Then does it have to do with their color?

Only insofar as colour is directly mentioned in the riddle.

hS

[Urwen]

Huan?

[Urwen]

Also, could you give me a hint or would you prefer if I abused the ten day rule again?

[Huinesoron]

Huan?

Nope!

Also, could you give me a hint or would you prefer if I abused the ten day rule again?

I have given you lots of hints, the riddle has been up for less than 24 hours, and you're not the only person playing. The point of these riddles is to be tricky puzzles to solve; you have to think about everything that was written, and what it could mean. Why did I mention those three specific things as something that the speaker does not themselves do? What do they mean by 'I remember'? What do they speak about (this one's pretty standard English grammar to be honest)?

Don't just go 'the riddle includes the word 'grey', so it must be something grey!'. It doesn't work like that.

hS

[Urwen]

Then I think the first line refers to Hurin, who was forced to sit on a seat upon Thangorodrim. The third refers to Theoden, who is compared to grey stone. Or maybe to the old guardian of the Paths of the dead. But the second line eludes me.

[Urwen]

And I might as well be the only person playing, considering that no one else has played recently. If more people were posting answers, then you'd have a point, but they aren't. :cool:

[Huinesoron]

And I might as well be the only person playing, considering that no one else has played recently. If more people were posting answers, then you'd have a point, but they aren't. :cool:

Pervinca's last post was less than eight hours ago.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Then I think the first line refers to Hurin, who was forced to sit on a seat upon Thangorodrim. The third refers to Theoden, who is compared to grey stone. Or maybe to the old guardian of the Paths of the dead. But the second line eludes me.

None of those are correct. Given that I have already said that both trolls and oliphaunts are relevant to the riddle, I'm not sure why you've decided to discard them entirely. The point of asking for hints, surely, is that you use them to narrow down your options...?

hS

[Urwen]

Except that there is no living thing connected to both of those that fits perfectly.

[Urwen]

Well, both were used by the Mordorians and Mordorian allies, but that doesn't help.

[Huinesoron]

Except that there is no living thing connected to both of those that fits perfectly.

Yes there is.

Well, both were used by the Mordorians and Mordorian allies, but that doesn't help.

No, it doesn't. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

I believe I hit upon the link, but not the exact answer. All are connected through Sam's singing.

I do not sit, enthroned on mountain's bones, - "troll sat alone on his seat of stone"
But I remember.
I do not light the sky with stars that fly, - "the finest rockets ever seen, they burst in stars of blue and green"
But I remember.
I do not stand alone, as grey as stone, - "grey as a mouse, big as a house, etc"
But I remember--

--and I speak.


So... Sam? Sam's Songs?

[Pervinca Took]

Bows to Huinesoron and G55.

Very, very clever.

[Huinesoron]

I believe I hit upon the link, but not the exact answer. All are connected through Sam's singing.

I do not sit, enthroned on mountain's bones, - "troll sat alone on his seat of stone"
But I remember.
I do not light the sky with stars that fly, - "the finest rockets ever seen, they burst in stars of blue and green"
But I remember.
I do not stand alone, as grey as stone, - "grey as a mouse, big as a house, etc"
But I remember--

--and I speak.


So... Sam? Sam's Songs?

Sam is the answer, as the person who was perfectly ordinary to look at, with no wondrous talents, but through his poetry spoke of many marvels.

Congratulations to G55, and also to Urwen and Pervinca for getting the troll and oliphaunt lines. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Congratulations to G55, and also to Urwen and Pervinca for getting the troll and oliphaunt lines. :)

Indeed. I kept thinking about Earendil as the flying star at first, and it was the other guesses that made me think broader. It was a group effort.

This one is inspired by the last, but not nearly as tricksy. Enjoy! :)



The first among the first,
I travelled there and back,
And there again I went
And stayed there till the end.

I missed the slaughter cruel.
I missed the backwards trip.
I missed the heroes' rise,
I missed the heroes' fall,
And strife internecine.

And when I had the chance
To go with honour there,
I passed it to another.
I missed the great revenge.

[Urwen]

Thingol?

[Pervinca Took]

Or maybe the very first elf to awaken, who is never heard of again?

Imin, was it?

[Galadriel55]

Neither one, but both are on the right track.

[Urwen]

First among elves, or men? Or even Maiar?


Melian?

[Urwen]

Ingwe? He was the first among the Minyar, he travelled to Valinor alongside Orome, and returned to convince their people to go to Valinor. Then he returned to Valinor and never left it again. As a result, he missed all the mayhem happening in ME, and when War of Wrath came around, he presumably passed the leadership of elven armies to Finarfin, and thus missed the great revenge against Morgoth.

[Huinesoron]

Or Finwe?

I feel like the first stanza points to either Ingwe or Finwe, who travelled to Valinor and back, then went again (unlike Elwe), and stayed there.

The bulk of stanza 2 applies to both of them, assuming the 'backwards trip' is the Return. But who missed the 'slaughter cruel'? Is that Ingwe, who missed the Kinslaying by virtue of, y'know, not being anywhere near it - or Finwe, who missed it only by being the first to die?

Then there's the third stanza, which uses the same 'there' that previously applied to Valinor. It could be that it's now referring to Middle-earth, and therefore means Ingwe, who let the Vanyar go to war without him. But it could also refer to Finwe, who gave up his chance to return to life in Valinor ('there') in favour of Miriel.

But 'the first among the first' means it's probably Ingwe; I just wanted to get my own guess in as well. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Ingwe? He was the first among the Minyar, he travelled to Valinor alongside Orome, and returned to convince their people to go to Valinor. Then he returned to Valinor and never left it again. As a result, he missed all the mayhem happening in ME, and when War of Wrath came around, he presumably passed the leadership of elven armies to Finarfin, and thus missed the great revenge against Morgoth.

That is so, perfectly explained. And proves once again that goody-two-shoes make boring characters. :)

Over to you.

[Urwen]

Inspired by the last one.....

I am but one
Yet my line still lingers on
Overshado'ed by my own
And in the end, my line had won

I left it all behind
And I did it all for love
'twas why I gave my life
To protect this treasure trove

Do you remember me?
I left the tale early on
And yet, without me
There would be no tale to be told

[Urwen]

I knew it. I knew that no one would try to solve my riddle...

[Urwen]

People are more interested in solving riddles which aren't mine. Well, fine then, have it your way.

[Huinesoron]

Did you seriously just denounce the entire Downs and storm off because no-one responded to you in under an hour?

Anyway, I say Finwe, nattering on about Feanor and his other sons, giving up his kingship and his life to do what Feanor would want him to do.

hS

[Urwen]

Yes, I did. Feeling cranky today. I've been sick as a dog this entire week. Also, you're correct.

[Huinesoron]

Yes, I did. Feeling cranky today. I've been sick as a dog this entire week. Also, you're correct.

I'm sorry to hear that; I hope you feel better soon.

To cheer you up(?), here's a quick riddle:

Friend of Red,
Friend of the Small,
Slow yet swift,
Yet not swift enough.

Each line references a specific passage, though not by using key words or anything.

hS

[Urwen]

There is a Small Finwe, but there is no Red Finwe.

[Huinesoron]

There is a Small Finwe, but there is no Red Finwe.

True - Caranthir's mother called him Red, but his father called him Dark.

It has nothing to do with House Finwe, nor are the capitalised words proper names.

hS

[Urwen]

If this is in the same vein with your house Bor/House Ulfang riddle, then Red = Maedhros.


Except that you said it has nothing to do with house Finwe.

[Huinesoron]

If this is in the same vein with your house Bor/House Ulfang riddle, then Red = Maedhros.


Except that you said it has nothing to do with house Finwe.

I also said Red and Small aren't standing in for proper names. They're just descriptors, and not for individuals.

hS

[Urwen]

Red could refer to Red Elves, mentioned in Letters of Father Christmas.

[Urwen]

And the Small could refer to children. Father Christmas himself is friends with both, so he is my first guess.

[Huinesoron]

That is really clever.

It's not right, but it's clever! And it's the right sort of thinking: the Red and Small are specific groups of... let's say 'people' for simplicity, though most wouldn't use it of the Red.

Don't forget the second half! Line 4 is a specific incident, but line 3 is more general to the character.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I doubt anyone would befriend Orcs, Balrogs, Trolls and the like. That leaves Elves, Men, Hobbits, Ents.....

[Urwen]

Wait. 'Slow yet fast' is a general description of the character, you say?


In that case, I know who Small are, and I believe I know the answer as well. Just need to find the Red.

[Urwen]

I believe Hobbits are 'Small', in which case, the answer could be Quickbeam, who is quicker than most, but slow still, as is his race. But who are the 'Red'?

[Huinesoron]

I believe Hobbits are 'Small', in which case, the answer could be Quickbeam, who is quicker than most, but slow still, as is his race. But who are the 'Red'?

Bing! Correct, the answer is Quickbeam. He was friend to the hobbits, but also to the red-berried Rowan trees. He was an Ent, so slow, but notoriously hasty - yet, when trying to catch Saruman, he wasn't quite quick enough.

Back to you. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....who or what should I write about?

[Urwen]

Brother mine, up above
Brother mine, down below
Sundered are we
Till everything crumbles to dust

Our father's pride
We awed many
Till evil took us
Into the darkness

Brother mine, up above
You had been freed
Yet so were we
Though much later than you were

Brother mine, up above
Brother mine, down below
When the world is remade
We shall meet again

Oh yeah. This might be my best riddle yet.

[Urwen]

I try to be patient, but being patient is hard.

[Galadriel55]

If the answer is what I think it is, this is indeed a great riddle. Is it the Silmarils? One in the earth below, one in the sea, one in the sky above.

[Urwen]

Yes indeed. :cool:

[Galadriel55]

I'm a little short on time and ideas to write another one right now. So if anyone has another riddle ready you can have the turn. :)

[Urwen]

I am eager to jump in, but I made the last one, so I am giving others 3 days to come up with something before doing so. I think this is more than fair.

[Huinesoron]

A quick one, then, to grant you legitimacy:

My first starts the name of the queen of the world
My second's in the Dark Lord's new name, and also his first
My third's in Felagund and his niece - but not in his heir
My fourth, not in Nerwen's name, but husband and child share it
My last would go unwritten in Tengwar in English
My whole gives a riddle to somebody else.

hS

(Edited to correct second clue.)

[Urwen]

I don't understand the last clue. Is the final letter unwritten in both Tengwar and English.

[Urwen]

Based on the letters I've found, the answer could be Egalmoth....

[Huinesoron]

I don't understand the last clue. Is the final letter unwritten in both Tengwar and English.

If you were writing English using Tengwar, you might well not bother to write this letter.

Based on the letters I've found, the answer could be Egalmoth....

It's five letters. :)

It looks like you've found the right references for at least the first 3, but have used the wrong names for the characters.

(And the final 'whole' line isn't just a throwaway 'now it's your turn'; it actually has relevance to the riddle...)

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, so the first letter is E, from Elbereth
The second is in Morgoth, but not Melkor
The third is is in Felagund/Finduilas or Celebrian, but not in Orodreth
The fourth is shared by Celeborn and Celebrian, but isn't in Nerwen.


Am I missing something here?

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so the first letter is E, from Elbereth
The second is in Morgoth, but not Melkor
The third is is in Felagund/Finduilas or Celebrian, but not in Orodreth
The fourth is shared by Celeborn and Celebrian, but isn't in Nerwen.


Am I missing something here?

Not 'Elbereth' (but the right character).

Correct on the second.

Not 'Felagund' (but the right character). I'd... actually completely spaced that Celebrian is also his niece, but the clue works for both her and Finduilas. Orodreth is right.

Not 'Nerwen' (but the right character). The other two are right.

And then there's the fifth. Do you know what letter can go unwritten in Tengwar when writing Quenya, and more specifically why?

hS

[Urwen]

No.

[Urwen]

Anyway, I've gathered all five-letter character names beginning with E or A, and none of them fit.

[Urwen]

I do have a couple of ideas, but they require one of Varda's names starting with either B or U, which isn't the case.

Wait, some of her names do start with B.

Bilbo, because of the original riddle game?

But that would require Morgoth having an I.....

[Urwen]

I think I figured it out. Thief, one of Bilbo's names, is the answer. One of Varda's names begins with T, Morgoth has H but Melkor doesn't, and the clues 3 and 4 fit as well.

[Huinesoron]

You're getting closer; 'thief' has one letter correct. :)

I'm usually referring to the most common name of the characters; I think you used 'Artanis' for #4 to get the e, but she has a more usual name...

(Whether the name used in #1 counts as 'most common' is entirely dependent on where you are, I guess.)

hS

[Urwen]

But if I use the usual names, then the letters don't match up to any five-letter word character name. >.>

[Urwen]

I mean, look at the letters I've found yourself.


E, A, T
G, T, H
F, I, N,
C, B, N,


They don't spell any remotely coherent word

[Huinesoron]

But if I use the usual names, then the letters don't match up to any five-letter word character name. >.>

The answer is not a character name. :)

I mean, look at the letters I've found yourself.

E, A, T
G, T, H
F, I, N,
C, B, N,

They don't spell any remotely coherent word

You have missed at least two letters for #1.
#2... oh, bother. Clue #2 is wrong, and should read 'and also his first'. Bother.
#3 you can narrow down by remembering that I said Celebrian also has the letter.
#4 you have correct.

It may interest you to know that the character for A is often not written down in Quenya-mode Tengwar. Thinking about why that might be may lead you to #5.

hS

[Urwen]

I dunno why that might be. Also, which names did I miss for one. Varda is her common name, is that it?

[Huinesoron]

I dunno why that might be. Also, which names did I miss for one. Varda is her common name, is that it?

It is indeed. (You also missed 'Gilthoniel', but Varda is definitely more common, if you happen to be Valinorean.)

hS

[Urwen]

Is the riddle answer Voice?

[Huinesoron]

Is the riddle answer Voice?

Correct! V for Varda, O is actually in Melkor as well (oops, sorry again!), I for Finrod, Finduilas, and Celebrian, C for Celeborn and Celebrian, and E is the most common letter in English; Quenya doesn't always write the As, because they're so common that you can basically assume they're there if nothing else is.

And of course, your voice is what you use to tell a riddle.

Which is what you can now do. :)

hS

[Urwen]

A short, simple one:

Along the sea foam
In twilight I roam
My voice is strong
My lifespan is long

[Urwen]

It really is easy....:(

[Huinesoron]

Is it he who harps upon the far
forgotten beaches and dark shores
where western foam for ever roars,
Maglor whose voice is like the sea?

hS

[Urwen]

Indeed so. The twilight idea came from Pervinca's 'gloam'.

[Huinesoron]

It was a nice one - at first I got tangled up thinking of sea-dwellers, rather than a coastal wanderer.

Okay, so let's go this way:

Take four coins, add another one or two,
A ruler born, a ruler made, a ruler over stream,
Visit York, Lancaster, take a horse and you
Will find in the end a helper's hopeful dream.

:)

hS

[Urwen]

It was a nice one - at first I got tangled up thinking of sea-dwellers, rather than a coastal wanderer.

hS


That was the intent. :p

[Urwen]

I assume your riddle is another cryptic one.

[Huinesoron]

I assume your riddle is another cryptic one.

You shouldn't; it's nothing like the last one.

hS

[Urwen]

But it mentions York and Lancaster, meaning it is cryptic, at least in part.

[Huinesoron]

But it mentions York and Lancaster, meaning it is cryptic, at least in part.

I guess?

hS

[Urwen]

Rosie Cotton?

[Huinesoron]

Rosie Cotton?

No.

The entire riddle is relevant, not just some of the words.

hS

[Urwen]

The third line is Rose, though.

[Huinesoron]

The third line is Rose, though.

No, it isn't.

hS

[Urwen]

Then I don't understand.

[Urwen]

Although I'd say.....it's Sam. :cool::p

[Huinesoron]

It's not Sam.

Consider each line separately (ignore 'and you' at the end of 3, that's just the start of line 4). Try to come up with an answer that works for every line. Consider that I have included both cryptic portions pointing at the precise name, and thematic (I guess) pieces talking about characteristics of the answer.

hS

[Urwen]

The answer is a ruler over stream?

[Huinesoron]

The answer is a ruler over stream?

What, you've not heard of the Narrow Bridge of the Petty-Dwarves, marked every inch to allow them to determine the exact speed of their crossing? I think it's from HoME XIII: The Weird Bits. ;)

No, the answer is not a ruler over a stream. Nor was Bilbo telling Gollum about a blue- and green-skinned couple comparing each other's eyes.

Here are some questions that might run through my head if I was seeing this riddle for the first time:

-What coin would you have four of? Why would you add one or two? One or two what?
-What's a ruler? How do you make a ruler? Why would you have three? Is the third one 'over stream' from the other two?
-What do York and Lancaster have in common? What's the connection to a horse?
-Who is the helper? Who or what did they hope for? Is the dream literal?
-Are there any elements in my answers to the above that string together to point at one person, place, or thing in Middle-earth?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you can have four quarters. The ruler is made by crowning them.

[Galadriel55]

Well, my first thoughts too were in the line of Brittish history: the War of the Roses and the Bonnie Prince Charlie uprising. Way to mess with a head.

In any case, the only two cents I have to offer is that York and Lancaster are both houses and cities. That plus the horse points to Rohan's royalty and/or cities.

[Huinesoron]

Well, you can have four quarters. The ruler is made by crowning them.

Both of these are true, but they're not the only true answers.

Well, my first thoughts too were in the line of Brittish history: the War of the Roses and the Bonnie Prince Charlie uprising. Way to mess with a head.

Entirely deliberate, I assure you. :D

In any case, the only two cents I have to offer is that York and Lancaster are both houses and cities.

They are, but they're also more than that.

That plus the horse points to Rohan's royalty and/or cities.

Nope, not even close.

hS

[Urwen]

Four coins is also a band.

[Huinesoron]

Four coins is also a band.

Apparently so! That's not relevant, though.

Looking at them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Coins), and thinking about the time the Beatles nearly ended up cast in an LotR movie, I'm wondering which of them would play which hobbit... :p

hS

[Urwen]

When we say ruler, are we referring to a king, queen etc. or a measuring tool?

[Urwen]

And the way a ruler is born......reminds me of Macbeth, where the title character was overthrown by a man born via a caesarean section. (and Tolkien was inspired by this to create the Ents)

[Huinesoron]

When we say ruler, are we referring to a king, queen etc. or a measuring tool?

No kings or queens, but definitely no measuring implements.

hS

[Urwen]

Then what kind of ruler is it?

[Huinesoron]

Then what kind of ruler is it?

That's for me to know and you to figure out.

hS

[Urwen]

President? Magistrate? Prime minister? Prince? Princess?

[Huinesoron]

President? Magistrate? Prime minister? Prince? Princess?

Actually none of those either, which is pretty impressive. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

They are, but they're also more than that.

What, places with incomprehensible accents? :p

Actually none of those either, which is pretty impressive. :)

hS

Ah, clearly the Master of Laketown. :D

[Huinesoron]

What, places with incomprehensible accents? :p

^_^ If it helps, I was going to say York and Gloucester before the Lancaster misdirect occurred to me.

Ah, clearly the Master of Laketown. :D

Nope!

But thinking through titles of rulers/leaders in Middle-earth is probably the way to go.

All right, another hint: the three rulers are concurrent, not consecutive.

hS

[Urwen]

Celegorm, Curufin and Orodreth came to mind. They were all ruling Nargothrond at the same time

[Huinesoron]

Celegorm, Curufin and Orodreth came to mind. They were all ruling Nargothrond at the same time

But all from the same side of the Narog, so that doesn't work. :)

I realise I'm being quite cagey here, but, like... the entire riddle hangs together. If I over-hint at one line, it'll make the others redundant. It's tricky to balance.

hS

EDIT: Riddle & notes for the new page:

"Okay, so let's go this way:

Take four coins, add another one or two,
A ruler born, a ruler made, a ruler over stream,
Visit York, Lancaster, take a horse and you
Will find in the end a helper's hopeful dream.

Here are some questions that might run through my head if I was seeing this riddle for the first time:

-What coin would you have four of? Why would you add one or two? One or two what?
-What's a ruler? How do you make a ruler? Why would you have three? Is the third one 'over stream' from the other two?
-What do York and Lancaster have in common? What's the connection to a horse?
-Who is the helper? Who or what did they hope for? Is the dream literal?
-Are there any elements in my answers to the above that string together to point at one person, place, or thing in Middle-earth?"

[Urwen]

Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.

[Huinesoron]

Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.

To be honest I don't think any of these three exerted any real power, but the second one probably had the most.

All three had different titles (and we've already established that none of them were royalty).

hS

[Urwen]

Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?

[Huinesoron]

Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?

Er... no. Those don't exactly form a natural set, do they?

hS

[Urwen]

Then I really don't know. Maybe ruler over stream is Ulmo, ruler of all the water. That would make the other two Tuor and Earendil, prolly.


Or maybe the three men who held power over the three elvish cities (ie. Turin, Tuor and Beren)

[Huinesoron]

Mmm... no.

The first two lines kind of go together, in that they are both describing material attributes of the answer. The third line is cryptic. The fourth line touches on the general character of the answer.

Each of these rulers held a position that existed both before and after them. You have already named (at some point) one of the people who held one of them.

hS

[Urwen]

At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?

[Huinesoron]

At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?

The former. I'm pretty sure every character in Middle-earth, down to "fox, thinking", has been named in this thread at some point.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.

[Huinesoron]

Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.

Orodreth is not one of the three.

I'd rather not give direct yes/nos to individual names, because you could easily just go through each one you've listed. I'll happily say whether a trio is correct, though.

hS

[Urwen]

Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?

[Urwen]

A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin

[Huinesoron]

Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?

A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin

Nope & nope.

Remember that the 'rulers' line is part of a riddle with a specific answer. The three must, by the structure of the riddle, have a strong connection to a single, specific person-place-or-thing - and a stronger connection than any other possible 'rulers', too. (If you were looking for a Beren/Luthien or Turin link, for instance, I'd surely have included Morgoth in there.)

hS

[Urwen]

Then I give up. Someone else can solve it, though I doubt anyone will. Your hints don't narrow it down much, if at all.

[Urwen]

Wait, I just had a thought. Goldberry could be a ruler over stream, being the daughter of a River King.

[Urwen]

Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.

[Huinesoron]

Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.

Sam is the Mayor of the Shire (technically of Michel Delving), an appointed/elected position. Pippin is the Thain, by right of birth.

hS

[Urwen]

So is it wrong?

[Huinesoron]

So is it wrong?

Goldberry, Bombadil, and Sam are not the three rulers in the riddle.

hS

[Urwen]

Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.

[Huinesoron]

Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.

You've had lots of hints, and I suspect you haven't even recognised several of them, but fine:

It's a place.

hS

[Urwen]

A place consisting of three words, I presume.

[Urwen]

The helper is Sam, I think

[Huinesoron]

A place consisting of three words, I presume.

No, just one or two.

The helper is Sam, I think

Correct.

hS

[Urwen]

I think he dreamt about the Grey Havens/Undying lands, where Elves went.

[Urwen]

But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.

[Huinesoron]

But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.

Because they don't, because that's not the answer.

Line 3 isn't a true cryptic clue - it's multiple clues to the same answer.

hS

[Urwen]

'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....

[Huinesoron]

'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....

It does, and deliberately so, but only as part of the War of the Roses misdirection.

hS

[Urwen]

I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.

[Huinesoron]

I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.

Incorrect. You definitely found at least one relevant fact; you just didn't notice it. :D

hS

[Urwen]

Then I'll comb again.

[Urwen]

Well, the only relevant bit I can find is how the Ring tempted him with a great garden.

[Huinesoron]

Then I'll comb again.

I wouldn't bother; you've already said it, too.

(And I gave you a nice big hint in reply that you didn't notice. :))

hS

[Urwen]

So it's a great garden of some kind?

[Huinesoron]

So it's a great garden of some kind?

No. Before that.

hS

[Urwen]

He loved Elves?

[Huinesoron]

He loved Elves?

Which line of the riddle are you proposing that being relevant to? I'm almost intrigued to hear how you managed to link it, but I'll just settle for a flat 'nope'.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it?

[Urwen]

I have another idea, and it does include 'another one or two' bit, but unless bag=four coins, that's not it either.

[Huinesoron]

Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it?

No, because then I would be pretty much answering the riddle for you. :)

I have another idea, and it does include 'another one or two' bit, but unless bag=four coins, that's not it either.

I see your idea, and it's actually pretty close! But not right.

Much earlier, you suggested 'quarters' as a coin you might have four of (making a dollar). Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in the same way?

hS

[Urwen]

If not a dollar, then it must be a cent.

[Urwen]

Sorry if I am not as knowledgeable as you are. D:

[Urwen]

There is Groat, which equals four pennies.

[Huinesoron]

There is Groat, which equals four pennies.

Does a quarter equal four dollars?

hS

[Urwen]

And if we add one or two to that, we get tanner.

[Urwen]

Does a quarter equal four dollars?

hS

No, but stella does.

[Huinesoron]

No, but stella does.

Much earlier, you suggested 'quarters' as a coin you might have four of (making a dollar). Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in the same way?

Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in a completely different, in fact totally opposite way?

hS

[Urwen]

You're moving the goalposts here.

So is it four coins that make up a quarter?