Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

My apologies, I have quite forgotten about this. This one is inspired by some of my favourite Hui riddles.



Made by the last of the house of the eldest,
Sent to the bearer of shining shield,
Given to maker of water vessels,
Passed to one who went far afield,
Followed the siblings going westward,
Never to enemy was revealed.

[Urwen]

The third line makes me think it's the ring Narya. Made by Celebrimbor, then given to Gil-Galad, who gave it to Cirdan, who gave it to Gandalf, who traveleed west with (among others) Elladan and Elrohir, I think. And it wasn't revealed until Sauron was gone.

[Galadriel55]

The third line makes me think it's the ring Narya. Made by Celebrimbor, then given to Gil-Galad, who gave it to Cirdan, who gave it to Gandalf, who traveleed west with (among others) Elladan and Elrohir, I think. And it wasn't revealed until Sauron was gone.

Narya is correct. "Siblings going westward" are Nenya and Vilya.

[Urwen]

*comes out of woodwork*

Here is another poetic one, because why not?

Named for the stream
Died due to the enemy's whim
A remnant of the joyful past
The first to die, but not the last

Hunter in the woods, predator and prey
His path would lead him astray
Great fighter on thе plain
Undone by his disdain

Memories lost in the dark
Until they were brought back by a spark
He was too late
Watching as she met her fate

She stayed for a long time
Against reason and rhyme
Unconquered until the last
At dusk she faded fast

He saw her go, undefeated she stayed
And his decisions couldn't be swayed
Near the mountain he had cried
By the water he had died

Someone try this. It's easy, I swear.

[Huinesoron]

Much like Bilbo, I fear you have given yourself away, o Spirit of Nen Lalaith - it would have been much harder to connect your namesake to a river if your brand new title wasn't right next to it. ^_^ I think this is the ill-fated House of Hurin, from first to last:

Lalaith was lovely until the plague took her and made everyone moody.

Turin was an absolute menace; "the woods" is the outlaws, "the plain" is the battles outside Nargothrond, and his disdain is... I mean, a lot of things, but probably when he defiantly met Glaurung's eyes and got frozen for his trouble. He didn't die second, but someone thought he did.

Nienor comes next with her lost memories. "He" here is Brandir, because Turin didn't actually see her die.

Then comes Morwen Elfsheen, lingering bitterly on until she died by the Stone, with her husband refusing to talk to her because I don't know why, Hurin, do you have no heart at all??!!?!

And last is presumably Hurin, who wrote his wife's name on their children's grave ("she stayed") and went off to destroy every kingdom his son hadn't gotten round to. Between them they bring down Nargothrond, Brethil, Doriath, and contribute to the fall of Gondolin. They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down. Absolute pair of menaces.

I'm actually not sure where Hurin died - didn't he chuck himself in the sea or something? Probably a good thing, can you imagine if he'd ended up at the Havens? He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS

[Urwen]

Much like Bilbo, I fear you have given yourself away, o Spirit of Nen Lalaith - it would have been much harder to connect your namesake to a river if your brand new title wasn't right next to it. ^_^ I think this is the ill-fated House of Hurin, from first to last:

Lalaith was lovely until the plague took her and made everyone moody.

Turin was an absolute menace; "the woods" is the outlaws, "the plain" is the battles outside Nargothrond, and his disdain is... I mean, a lot of things, but probably when he defiantly met Glaurung's eyes and got frozen for his trouble. He didn't die second, but someone thought he did.

Nienor comes next with her lost memories. "He" here is Brandir, because Turin didn't actually see her die.

Then comes Morwen Elfsheen, lingering bitterly on until she died by the Stone, with her husband refusing to talk to her because I don't know why, Hurin, do you have no heart at all??!!?!

And last is presumably Hurin, who wrote his wife's name on their children's grave ("she stayed") and went off to destroy every kingdom his son hadn't gotten round to. Between them they bring down Nargothrond, Brethil, Doriath, and contribute to the fall of Gondolin. They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down. Absolute pair of menaces.

I'm actually not sure where Hurin died - didn't he chuck himself in the sea or something? Probably a good thing, can you imagine if he'd ended up at the Havens? He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS

Well, yea. The title inspired that one...well, the title and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0FQnp2SZko)...don't tell anyone, though. ;)

But actually, the 'undone by his disdain' line means he killed himself.

It's yours.

[Urwen]

He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS


But also...all hail the Wrench!

[Urwen]

They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down.



Her name is Aerin, and they didn't incite her. She did it all by herself.

[Galadriel55]

Her name is Aerin, and they didn't incite her. She did it all by herself.

After Turin came there and incited a revolt which basically made it impossible for any Hadorian to continue their existence the way it was before due to the fear of reprocussions. He created a situation which forced people into action they may not have otherwise chosen or wanted to take.

[Urwen]

Well, they are cursed, by a Vala, to be fair.

[Galadriel55]

Well, they are cursed, by a Vala, to be fair.

Hey, I got a lot of sympathy for the Hin - and for the parents, - and I am less inclined than Hui to blame them for the destruction they unwittingly brought about. Their story makes me sad, not angry. But specifically in Dor-lomin, Turin was indeed trying to impose his own philosophy on a system with a very fragile balance, and while there is no right answer in that plight (do you proudly die fighting as a people? Or live an abased life to allow your people to perhaps persevere and see another day at the end of it) - it is not a stranger's call to make on behalf of the people who are actually suffering the consequences of either of the options. He forced their hand in a way he didn't force anyone else's hand in his long line of unlucky tribulations.

[Urwen]

Hey, I got a lot of sympathy for the Hin - and for the parents, - and I am less inclined than Hui to blame them for the destruction they unwittingly brought about. Their story makes me sad, not angry. But specifically in Dor-lomin, Turin was indeed trying to impose his own philosophy on a system with a very fragile balance, and while there is no right answer in that plight (do you proudly die fighting as a people? Or live an abased life to allow your people to perhaps persevere and see another day at the end of it) - it is not a stranger's call to make on behalf of the people who are actually suffering the consequences of either of the options. He forced their hand in a way he didn't force anyone else's hand in his long line of unlucky tribulations.


Hm, maybe I should move this to another topic, like tidbits of curiosity, to avoid clogging up this thread.

[Urwen]

New riddle?

[Huinesoron]

It's been... a bit of a week. I tried to do something on about the seventh, but it just didn't come.

Thankfully, this one did:

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill.

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten.

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter.

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us.

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it--
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, at first glance, I'd say Eomer, but not all lines seem to fit...

Unless...well, the riddle says the speaker is not Turin, but it never says the speaker is male. And, well, each of his sisters has a sister too, and they share parents...

So I'd say they're both speaking, with alternating lines.

[Urwen]

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill. - Nienor speaks this one

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten. - Morwen

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter. - Hurin

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us. - same speaker from the first stanza

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it it--Well, Urwen rejected her fate of being held by Morgoth's curse by seeking refuge with Eru beyond the circles of the world.
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called? - Nienor and Urwen, of course.

[Huinesoron]

Well, at first glance, I'd say Eomer, but not all lines seem to fit...

I am not Eomer.


Unless...well, the riddle says the speaker is not Turin, but it never says the speaker is male. And, well, each of his sisters has a sister too, and they share parents...

So I'd say they're both speaking, with alternating lines.

And this is very very clever, I'm really impressed... but I'm not Nielainielwen either, sorry. (Nor is it any other clever way of making the lines about Hurin and Morwen and their kids, I'm afraid.)

hS

[Urwen]

*looks up Mannish family trees* It could be that person...Ar-Adunakhor or whatever he was called before...He has no sister, though...


There is also Faramir and Boromir, but they have no sister either...

[Huinesoron]

*looks up Mannish family trees* It could be that person...Ar-Adunakhor or whatever he was called before...He has no sister, though...


There is also Faramir and Boromir, but they have no sister either...

It is not. Boromir and Faramir come closest in time and geography to the right answer.

There is only a single speaker.

hS

[Urwen]

Denethor is specifically described as 'grim' later in life. However, both of his sisters are unnamed, and therefore, we don't know whether their names are 'altered'.

[Huinesoron]

Denethor is specifically described as 'grim' later in life. However, both of his sisters are unnamed, and therefore, we don't know whether their names are 'altered'.

Not Denethor. I also didn't look at the Books while writing this, so there's no clever word use I'm afraid.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I get a bit of a Minas Anor / Minas Ithil vibe from some of the lines - two sisters, renamed when bad stuff happened, children of Elendil&Sons - but everything Minas Tirith touches doesn't turn ill, Elendil and Isildur are neither bound nor any longer in the north at the time of the remaining, and what mother is there to speak of.

[Urwen]

So it's someone whose name can be translated into 'grim face', right? Since you didn't look at the books?

[Pervinca Took]

Could it be Turgon?

No ... not a ruler of men. And the mother bit doesn't fit.

[Urwen]

Could it be Turgon?

No ... not a ruler of men. And the mother bit doesn't fit.


Actually, a Turgon is a Steward of Gondor.

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if the people are personifications of rivers.

The mother could be the main river, the 'I' and the sister tributaries of her.

The father could be frozen up, (bound), in the north, and bitter to experience?

The changes could have been caused by the War of Wrath?

[Huinesoron]

I get a bit of a Minas Anor / Minas Ithil vibe from some of the lines - two sisters, renamed when bad stuff happened, children of Elendil&Sons - but everything Minas Tirith touches doesn't turn ill, Elendil and Isildur are neither bound nor any longer in the north at the time of the remaining, and what mother is there to speak of.

Ooh, this comes so close. But I am not Minas Tirith, and neither Elendil nor Isildur are my father.

Actually, between this and Pervinca's "personifications" comment, I'm happy to confirm that there are no actual people in the riddle (other than the Men who were ruled... and I guess Turin, though he's only there in the negative).

So it's someone whose name can be translated into 'grim face', right? Since you didn't look at the books?

You give me too much credit. "Grim" is just a descriptive word, no hidden meanings.

(Now you've got me trying to translate "grim face" into Quenya... :rolleyes:)

hS

[Urwen]

Minas Ithil, then? With Anarion as the 'father'?

[Huinesoron]

Minas Ithil, then? With Anarion as the 'father'?

Hmm, what was the precise question? Right - no, I am not called "Minas Ithil". :D

(And the father is not a person, so cannot be Anarion.)

hS

PS: "Thîrvalch" would be Sindarin for "fierce face"; that's about as close to 'grim' as I can get.

[Urwen]

Are you called 'Minas Morgul', then?

With Minas Tirith as 'sister', and Osgiliath as 'father'?

[Huinesoron]

Are you called 'Minas Morgul', then?

With Minas Tirith as 'sister', and Osgiliath as 'father'?

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill.
Once I was filled with moonglow; now I am infused with fell sorcery.

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten.
Once Osgiliath stood proud astride Anduin; now she lies ruined.

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter.
Once I was offspring of Numenor; now I am ruled by Barad-dur.

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us.
Once Minas Anor was my sister; now she is Minas Tirith, and we are foes.

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it--
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called?
Once I was Minas Ithil of the moon; now MINAS MORGUL is my name.

Very good! I enjoyed making the tragedy of the (Other) Two Towers sound so much like that of the Children of Hurin. I'm still not sure whether I should have left it open for you to just guess Turin at the start, but it worked. Over to you, and well done everyone!

hS

[Urwen]

Thanks! I enjoyed that one!

Now for a much less elegant one

Listen to my tale of woe
Of wrath and ruin, a tale untold
It happened long ago
In the realm where we had a stronghold

Two children I called my own
Both shared the same fate
One lies under the cold stone
The other died with her mate

The first one fled, defying our will
For she couldn't be contained
She condemned herself, for good for ill
And in this land she remained

The second one left us too
Retribution he sought
From one place to the next he'd go
Against the fate he fought

Now they're both gone
Along with my own mate
And now I weep all alone
The ones I loved met their fate

To the lands where I used to dwell
I shall now return
I bid the ones I loved farewell
Let the land they died in burn!

[Huinesoron]

Hmm. Other than one word, it sounds like Hurin. He only knew two of his children: Lalaith, who died at home after being an uncontainably joyful child, and Turin, who died with his mate, Nienor, after roaming around fighting fate and seeking retribution. Even the last stanza fits Hurin - "the land they died in" refers to the burning of Brethil, while he returned to both Hithlum and Gondolin (or tried to) after his release.

But the line says "The other died with her mate", which makes this child "the first" who fled and remained in "this land". Lalaith didn't die with anyone.

hS

[Urwen]

Hmm. Other than one word, it sounds like Hurin. He only knew two of his children: Lalaith, who died at home after being an uncontainably joyful child, and Turin, who died with his mate, Nienor, after roaming around fighting fate and seeking retribution. Even the last stanza fits Hurin - "the land they died in" refers to the burning of Brethil, while he returned to both Hithlum and Gondolin (or tried to) after his release.

But the line says "The other died with her mate", which makes this child "the first" who fled and remained in "this land". Lalaith didn't die with anyone.

hS

Oh, close, but not quite there yet. If it helps, the speaker is unlikely to utter the last line, but I wrote it based on [speaker]'s actions. Also, you're right in that Turin is one of the 'children', but neither Hurin nor Lalaith are involved. (Although Hurin might be a mite bit involved, since it was his actions which brought about [that event].)

[Huinesoron]

Ahh. I guess Their Majesties of Doriath officially fostered Turin? In which case you are Melian, talking in turn about Luthien and Turin, and how after Thingol's death you ran off to Valinor and left Doriath to be destroyed. Twice.

hS

[Urwen]

Ahh. I guess Their Majesties of Doriath officially fostered Turin? In which case you are Melian, talking in turn about Luthien and Turin, and how after Thingol's death you ran off to Valinor and left Doriath to be destroyed. Twice.

hS


Precisely.

[Huinesoron]

Nice one; nice misdirection!

And now for something much shorter:


Between a star in the water
and a star in the water
A song in the water
but whose was the voice?

hS

[Urwen]

Methinks that the first line or the second line is referencing Numenor.

[Huinesoron]

Methinks that the first line or the second line is referencing Numenor.

Very nice thought, but no, and no.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Numenor was a darn good guess... Thinking of other stars in waters, how about - between Kheled Zaram and the Mirror of Galadriel, you have the Nimrodel stream - ie Nimrodel for answer?

[Pervinca Took]

I thought of Kheled Zaram, but not the rest!

[Huinesoron]

Numenor was a darn good guess... Thinking of other stars in waters, how about - between Kheled Zaram and the Mirror of Galadriel, you have the Nimrodel stream - ie Nimrodel for answer?

Correct on all points - well done! Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Galadriel55]

My apologies. I've had a busy time of late and haven't really come up with anything. If someone else has a riddle ready, you can have the turn.

[Huinesoron]

It's been a while, so I'll chuck in a quick one:

Volumes bound in Elder Ages,
Halfling sisters, jewelled rings,
Tribes and Ents and record pages,
What sums up these several things?

hS

[Urwen]

Tolkien's works, possibly?

[Huinesoron]

Tolkien's works, possibly?

The first two words refer to (a) Tolkien work(s). And of course the whole thing is Tolkien themed. :D

hS

[Urwen]

The number three?

[Huinesoron]

The number three?

Quite right! The stage is yours.

hS

[Urwen]

I am the first
Known as Shepherdess
I married out of spite
To deny them what was mine by right.

I am the second
Fickle like a moon
During my life rose the Lord of the Gifts
Some say I accepted his boon.

I am the third
I refused to do what I hate
My dislike paved his path
And sealed my child's fate

We three share a phrase
We're described by
Some say there is one more
Say the phrase if you know our lore.

[Huinesoron]

"Shepherdess" was the big opening hint here. Does anyone other than Tar-Ancalime actually interact with sheep in the Legendarium? Someone *must*, but I can't bring them to mind. Pretty much everything the Princess Shepherdess did was out of spite, including her marriage.

I'm in Verse 2. :D At least I think I'm still the main proponent of Tar-Telperien the Witch-Queen of Numenor.

I remember Tar-Vanimelde less than I do the others, basically because she did nothing. I think "his path" here refers to her husband usurping the sceptre - not that that set a terrible precedent or anything!

You are the Ruling Queens of Westernesse, and Tar-Miriel deserves to be counted alongside you. :(

hS

[Urwen]

That is correct. :)

[Huinesoron]

Rent with iron from the forest's bones,
Bound by iron-slain heifer's hide,
Scarred with iron by the gander's barbs,
Stained like iron-death; who am I?

hS

[Urwen]

Boromir's horn?

[Huinesoron]

Boromir's horn?

I'm afraid you're not even close. :-/

hS

[Urwen]

Rent with iron from the forest's bones, - Angrist?
Bound by iron-slain heifer's hide,
Scarred with iron by the gander's barbs,
Stained like iron-death; who am I? - Gurthang?

[Galadriel55]

"Forest's bones" makes me think trees, and therefore something wooden. I agree with Urwen that "iron-death" soubds very much like Gurthang, so possibly painted black. To be honest if it wasn't for the "likely black" part, I would lean to Earendil's ship - a boat of timber felled. Equally though, the second line makes it sound like it's bound in leather.


Oh! Black leather bindings! Is it the book of Mazarbul? Paper made of trees, bound in leather, presumably 3rd line refers to arrow holes and other tears, and black colour?

[Huinesoron]

"Forest's bones" makes me think trees, and therefore something wooden. I agree with Urwen that "iron-death" soubds very much like Gurthang, so possibly painted black. To be honest if it wasn't for the "likely black" part, I would lean to Earendil's ship - a boat of timber felled. Equally though, the second line makes it sound like it's bound in leather.


Oh! Black leather bindings! Is it the book of Mazarbul? Paper made of trees, bound in leather, presumably 3rd line refers to arrow holes and other tears, and black colour?

This is so close! You're right on paper and leather, though not on the arrow-holes, and you're even right that "iron-death" indicates a colour... but it has nothing to do with Gurthang, and the colour is not black.

hS

[Urwen]

Red book of Westmarch, then?

[Huinesoron]

Red book of Westmarch, then?

Correct. :) I don't know that it was dyed with iron (some red dyes use mercury ores instead), but the death of iron is rust-red.

The ink, however, would have been iron-based, which is the meaning of the third line: it's just a grisly description of writing with a quill pen. :D

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

Wait, they wrote in that book with blood? :eek:

[Huinesoron]

Wait, they wrote in that book with blood? :eek:

What, did you think Bilbo took a pen and inkwell along to write his diary with? :D

Nah, so the Magna Carta exhibit at Salisbury Cathedral had this whole thing about how the ink is made from oak galls and iron salts. Wikipedia's "ink" article has a big block quote about ink recipes which are all iron-based too, so I figure it's likely what the Hobbits used.

hS

[Urwen]

I will write the riddle and the password tomorrow, promise.

[Urwen]

I stood near the river
For centuries I watched
Time unfolds
Many things I took for granted

The black one brought ruin
To me and those around me
The river turned red with blood
And I watched it all come to be.

To anyone who still might be around: This riddle is trickier than you'd think.

[Huinesoron]

I stood near the river
For centuries I watched
Time unfolds
Many things I took for granted

The black one brought ruin
To me and those around me
The river turned red with blood
And I watched it all come to be.

To anyone who still might be around: This riddle is trickier than you'd think.

Hmm. There can't be that many battles or massacres near rivers (which would be needed for one to turn red with blood). Let's see if we can narrow it down.

"The black one" could be Morgoth, Sauron, or Turin. It couldn't be Saruman, so the Battle of Bywater is out. I don't think we can blame Morgoth for the Kinslayings, so anything to do with Doriath is out too.

"For centuries I watched" means it's either an inanimate object, or an immortal; it also can't be anything built (or anyone born) in the First Age after about 200, because "for centuries".

Hmm... the repetition of "watched" has me wondering: are you the Palantir of Osgiliath? I think you need to be in an established location to get "those around me", so something like the battle of Gladden Fields is out. Osgiliath stands directly over the river, and the Palantir did do a lot of watching.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you have the correct group for 'the black one', and the 'inanimate object' part. Everything else is false.

Also, Sauron never destroyed that Palantir, so 'brought ruin to me' doesn't apply, Every part of the riddle applies, remember?

[Huinesoron]

Okay. Are you Minas Tirith, the Tower of Guard of the First Age?

It stood on an island in Sirion
It was the Tower of Guard for centuries
Time passed
And the Noldor grew complacent with their Siege.

Sauron came upon the tower and its people,
Driving them out and bringing spiritual ruin, and ultimately killing its king and handing over the keys to its destruction.
I do not know whether the loss of Minas Tirith involved slaughter,
But the tower watched until it was destroyed completely.

Alarmingly, for all the talk of Finrod's grave remaining "inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas," the Grey Annals record that after the Nirnaeth, "the pass of Sirion was pierced and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt". Christopher even highlights this, saying the published Silm was amended from "[the isle] ever after remained inviolate; for Sauron came never back thither". I guess when they rebuilt they left the grave alone? (Tragically, only seven years passed between Finrod's death, and Sauron reclaiming Tol Sirion.)

hS

[Urwen]

No, but close, at least geographically.

[Huinesoron]

Barad Eithel then? For basically the same reasons, though I can't say for sure Sauron was directly involved that time.

hS

[Urwen]

No...

[Urwen]

Need a hint?

[Huinesoron]

Unless you are Thangorodrim, with the Black One being Ancalagon, yes please.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you're thinking in the wrong direction. Color black is not always associated with evil.


(And I probably gave everything away with this hint.)

[Huinesoron]

Well, you're thinking in the wrong direction. Color black is not always associated with evil.


(And I probably gave everything away with this hint.)

Oh, then you're probably Nargothrond. Unless you're Brethil, or Mim's house, or that one part of Dor-lomin, or literally any other place Turin ever got within shouting distance of. But probably Nargothrond. :)

hS

[Urwen]

True, true.


(How to make a riddle about my favorites without making it about them? Just use a place associated with them.)

[Huinesoron]

Well, why not?

I heard their words:
The lord of the Forest welcomed me;
The queen of the Island wished my hand;
The king in the Mountains feared me;
The steed of the Plains would bear me;
But in the end, each found another.
Who am I?


hS

[Urwen]

The second and third line could refer to multiple people (if the Island I am thinking of is the same one you're thinking of.), but I will assume you're referring to Telperien and Thorin...in which case...er...

[Huinesoron]

The second and third line could refer to multiple people (if the Island I am thinking of is the same one you're thinking of.), but I will assume you're referring to Telperien and Thorin...in which case...er...

Hiya! It's been... A While, yeah.

Neither Telperien nor Thorin, though it looks like you have the Island right. (I will note in passing that "lord" in the first line is not a specific title; it just means "a male ruler".)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, starting with line 2 might make it easier. So we can remove Vanimelde, since she is not well-known...but wait...Queen doesn't neccesarily mean 'ruling queen'...wait, I might have a theory... *wanders off to check*

[Urwen]

Could the answer be 'no one', or some variation thereof? The text says that Ancalime originally wanted to marry no one, the dwarves feared no one, Shadowfax bore no one originally etc.

[Huinesoron]

Could the answer be 'no one', or some variation thereof? The text says that Ancalime originally wanted to marry no one, the dwarves feared no one, Shadowfax bore no one originally etc.

Correct! Or close enough: the actual answer is "no man".

I heard their words:
The lord of the Forest welcomed me: "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Beor who serve Finrod the beloved."
The queen of the Island wished my hand: "I should be free to wed whom I will; and that would be Uner (which is “Noman”), whom I prefer above all others."
The king in the Mountains feared me: "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
The steed of the Plains would bear me: "Seven nights ago Shadowfax returned; but the king's anger is not less, for now the horse is wild and will let no man handle him."
But in the end, each found another.
Who am I?
I am No Man.


With full credit to Miranda Otto, who has just today appeared (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=739230#post739230) in-character as Eowyn to narrate the "War of the Rohirrim" movie.

... which of course means I was wrong about Telperien, for we all know that the Witch-King of the mountains of Angmar was in reality the Witch-Queen, etc etc etc.

Anyway, over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

I finally figured out what to use, so try this one on for size.

My twin and I were born amidst twilight
We were forcibly torn apart
I settled in woodland realm, a place of light
And there I got a new start

Years passed, and a companion strong
Realized my worth and took me along
We traveled for a long time
On a search without reason or rhyme

In the place of shadows he was gone
But I, I lived on
A new companion I found
But unseen forces had him bound

But I still had my own free will
For good or for ill
Tales were told
About a grudge I did hold

I died at the riverside
Swallowed by the tide
One day I will return at last
And the final judgment will be cast.

[Huinesoron]

brb, checking The Children of Hurin.

Hmm, okay. I'm going to guess you are Anglachel/Gurthang. There's some nice translated names in the riddle - I spotted "strong" for Beleg and "place of shadows" for Taur-nu-Fuin. I had to look up "twilight" for Nan Elmoth, and can't make "place of light" fit anything specific for Doriath.

The thing I was checking was what actually happened to ol'Blacksword. The riddle made me wonder if it had gone into the river somehow, but shattering counts as "died at the riverside". "Swallowed by the tide" I guess means... blood and/or despair?

hS

[Urwen]

Your explanation is correct.

[Huinesoron]

Your explanation is correct.

Awesome. :) This one's been percolating in my mind for a week or two:

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
The master may have mourned us, if he learned.

"Not very good, perhaps, but to the point," as Bilbo says (that's not a clue).

hS
[/I]

[Urwen]

That makes me think of paired things, and my first instinct says the Towers of the Teeth.

[Huinesoron]

That makes me think of paired things, and my first instinct says the Towers of the Teeth.

Not the Towers of the Teeth, and I wouldn't get too hung up on "paired" if I were you.

hS

[Mithadan]

The watchers of the gate of Cirith Ungol?

[Huinesoron]

The watchers of the gate of Cirith Ungol?

Also no. The speakers were never in Mordor.

hS

[Urwen]

The beacons of Gondor?

[Huinesoron]

The beacons of Gondor?

No.

The riddle is a lot more literal than it feels like you're reading it.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, it could be your kind. The Eagles, that is. Except they don't fit the last two lines. And they did enter Mordor.

[Huinesoron]

Well, it could be your kind. The Eagles, that is. Except they don't fit the last two lines. And they did enter Mordor.

It's not the Eagles, though you're onto a good thing thinking about species.

I will mention that the time between the second and third events is a lot longer than you're thinking... and that "at the first" and "at the last" are literal, but not in a way you've mentioned yet.

hS

[Urwen]

The Ents?

[Huinesoron]

The Ents?

Technically you're closer, but I don't think you're going to find the answer by just listing off species. :) Share your thinking and I will offer hints.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I have no real explanation, other than that this line made me think of Quickbeam


And one strode swift through gentle hills

[Huinesoron]

Well, I have no real explanation, other than that this line made me think of Quickbeam

Quickbeam might have made someone else think of that incident, except that the wrong Hobbits were in Fangorn.

hS

[Urwen]

Horses? The 'haggard hero' line made me think of that one scene from the movies...

[Huinesoron]

Horses? The 'haggard hero' line made me think of that one scene from the movies...

Sorry, I somehow missed this completely. Nothing to do with horses.

You got closest with "Ents", which is the right length and has two of the letters right (of which one is the plural -s :D). The four couplets take place in four different books... if the last one can be said to take place in a book at all.

And I'll confirm that "one strode swift through the gentle hills" is an LotR reference, though not from Two Towers.

hS

[mormegil]

I guess the Ring Bearers.

I know it's not it but I figured I'd share that I guessed it and it's not correct.

I PM'ed my guess.:rolleyes:

[Urwen]

Elfs?

Or maybe Orcs...it all fits, except maybe the third line...but it only has one letter that is the same, not two.


Or maybe cats, though I don't know how cats can hold anyone..

[mormegil]

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
-No real idea where to start here except that there is a 'we' so it's clearly multiple individuals or things.

Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
-Wanderer makes me think of Gandalf or Aragorn but it could be a host of people from the Silmarillion :rolleyes:

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
-I can't recall if there's a 'dance' with Gollum or another in the dark, so it could mean combat. This makes me think of Gandalf fighting the Balrog

Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
-First thought is Samwise holding Frodo, but in looking at previous I can make the argument of Gandalf again, however it's 'we' not I...so?

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
-No real clue on this one

Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
-Same, no idea

But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
-This one gives me pause, because what other plural failed other than all the ringbearers which it isn't that answer? The 9 kings of old failed and became wraiths...but the other clues don't hold up to that.

The master may have mourned us, if he learned.
-This one, led me first to think of Frodo and Gollum but I think there's more to it. The Master ring is the only other thing that makes sense. If it failed after the master wouldn't have learned it makes me think that maybe it's....

The 3 elven rings?

[Urwen]

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

[mormegil]

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

Gotcha, I didn't see the explanation given on length. Well there goes my guess :D

[Huinesoron]

I guess the Ring Bearers.

As you said, it's not. :)

Elfs?

Or maybe Orcs...it all fits, except maybe the third line...but it only has one letter that is the same, not two.

Or maybe cats, though I don't know how cats can hold anyone..

No to any of those.

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
-No real idea where to start here except that there is a 'we' so it's clearly multiple individuals or things.

Correct, at least in that line.


Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
-Wanderer makes me think of Gandalf or Aragorn but it could be a host of people from the Silmarillion

This reference is to a work even older than the first Silmarillion.


One of us watched the dance in the dark,
-I can't recall if there's a 'dance' with Gollum or another in the dark, so it could mean combat. This makes me think of Gandalf fighting the Balrog

The dance is literal, and doesn't involve Gollum, Gandalf, or Balrogs.


Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
-First thought is Samwise holding Frodo, but in looking at previous I can make the argument of Gandalf again, however it's 'we' not I...so?

None of those.


And one strode swift through gentle hills,
-No real clue on this one

Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
-Same, no idea


This one may not actually have existed; we only hear about it second-hand, though the Fellowship member speaking about it certainly believed it.


But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
-This one gives me pause, because what other plural failed other than all the ringbearers which it isn't that answer? The 9 kings of old failed and became wraiths...but the other clues don't hold up to that.

I'm being a bit cheeky with this couplet. I will also note that I didn't say failed, and fell is more literal than you'd think.


The master may have mourned us, if he learned.
-This one, led me first to think of Frodo and Gollum but I think there's more to it. The Master ring is the only other thing that makes sense. If it failed after the master wouldn't have learned it makes me think that maybe it's....


"If" is me speaking; I don't know if the master heard what happened to the "speakers" (the timeline isn't entirely clear to me), but he would definitely have mourned.

The 3 elven rings?

It is not.

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

You're correct: the answer is a three-letter word, + "s" for the plural.

None of the couplets are spoken by the same individuals, and only the "speaker" in the third couplet might have actually been able to speak. If it existed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

My best guess was also Ents, which was shot down. However, for what it's worth -

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.

To me this strongly evokes the meeting of Beren and Luthien. Am I completely on the wrong track, or is there something to it?

[Huinesoron]

My best guess was also Ents, which was shot down.

Ents remains the best guess. And there is a very strong Ent connection with couplet 3.


To me this strongly evokes the meeting of Beren and Luthien. Am I completely on the wrong track, or is there something to it?

That is 100% correct. "Held" is pretty literal, though specific to one version of the tale (the original BoLT "Tale of Tinuviel", I've just checked).

hS

[Galadriel55]

Ents remains the best guess. And there is a very strong Ent connection with couplet 3.

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.

Yes, this very much evokes the walking tree giant or whatnot that the hobbits gossip about in the beginning of LOTR.

Actually, let me look up that passage.

Oh.

Oooh.

Maybe.

I have a plausible idea, though can't fit it well into all the stanzas, or maybe lack the pre-Silm lore to make the connections. But I gotta ask:

ELMS? As in Elm trees?

But Neldoreth forests are beech... unless Beren happened to prop himself up on the one elm he could find in that forest, lol. Yeah, not sure how it fits, but I was ruminating on Ents and trees for a bit now, and this actually makes sense. Who cut then down in the end? Was it the chopped tree alleyway in the Scouring (or even in Galadriel's mirror)? But Sam and Frodo know about it, so the final line doesn't make sense.

[Urwen]

Methinks you're correct with that one. I just remembered Huey's line about Melko being chased up a tree by Huan. If the tree in question is an elm, that could be it.

But I'll toss out another guess of my own just in case. Could it be irons? I seem to recall irons being described as 'fell' at least once.


Never mind, disregard that guess. I found a better one.

All eyes were quenched, save those that glared
in Morgoth's lowering brows, and stared
in slowly wandering wonder round,
and slow were in enchantment bound.
Their will wavered, and their fire failed,
and as beneath his brows they paled,
the Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like the stars that in the North

Then flaring suddenly they fell

Read the bolded words.

[Huinesoron]

I have a plausible idea, though can't fit it well into all the stanzas, or maybe lack the pre-Silm lore to make the connections. But I gotta ask:

ELMS? As in Elm trees?

But Neldoreth forests are beech... unless Beren happened to prop himself up on the one elm he could find in that forest, lol. Yeah, not sure how it fits, but I was ruminating on Ents and trees for a bit now, and this actually makes sense. Who cut then down in the end? Was it the chopped tree alleyway in the Scouring (or even in Galadriel's mirror)? But Sam and Frodo know about it, so the final line doesn't make sense.

The answer is indeed ELMS.

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.


Now as he stood at the foot of the little hill there came a faint breeze and then a flight of rooks above his head in the clear even light. The sun had some time sunk beyond the boughs of the elms that stood as far as the eye could look about the plain, and some time had its last gold faded through the leaves and slipped across the glades to sleep beneath the roots and dream till dawn.

Eriol approaches Kortirion, in what is arguably the third paragraph of the Legendarium - "at the first" indeed. These are the famous elms of Warwickshire, which Tolkien loved.

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.


Now the lies of Melko ran among Beren's folk so that they believed evil things of the secret Elves, yet now did he see Tinuviel dancing in the twilight, and Tinuviel was in a silver-pearly dress, and her bare white feet were twinkling among the hemlock-stems. Then Beren cared not whether she were Vala or Elf or child of Men and crept near to see; and he leant against a young elm that grew upon a mound so that he might look down into the little glade where she was dancing, for the enchantment made him faint.

This is a real elm; apparently there was one by the glade where Edith danced for Tolkien, though it is gone now. (This is foreshadowing.)

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.

"But this one was as big as an elm tree and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch."

"Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not."

"But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors."

"Then Hal can't have seen one," said Ted.

Did this elm, or elm-like Ent (or Entwife?) actually exist, or was it all in Hal's head? Who even knows?

But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
The master may have mourned us, if he learned.

By 1990, very few mature elms were left in Britain or much of continental Europe. One of the most distinctive English countryside trees (See John Constable's painting Salisbury Cathedral from the South-West), the English elm U. minor 'Atinia', is particularly susceptible as it is the elm most favoured by the Scolytus beetles. Thirty years after the outbreak of the epidemic, nearly all these trees, which often grew to more than 45 m high, are gone.

There are no (mature) elms in Warwickshire now. There are none on the moors. There are none by the clearing where Edith danced in the hemlocks. From the late 60s to the 90s, Dutch Elm Disease wiped the English elm almost out of existence. The few that survive are protected by strenuous and constant effort (Brighton), or too far north for the disease to spread (Edinburgh).

I haven't been able to determine how fast the disease spread, or when the Warwickshire elms in particular were felled. I don't know if it happened by 1973, or whether it would have made the newspapers. But I know for certain-sure that Tolkien would have grieved for them if he knew they were dying.

~

That's it for Huinesoron's Fun With Trees; over to G55 if you want it. :)

(Urwen, I love the idea of using a specific piece of poetry to make a riddle, there's a definite risk of me doing that next time round. :D)

hS

[Galadriel55]

I really liked that riddle. This was some good elm-referencing, and while the gist of the scenes was clear it took actual quote hunting to get it.

I suspect this one will be easier, but hopefully hard enough to still be fun. After toying with a couple versions of this idea I went with the more poetic one.




When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day,
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray,
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air -
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here!

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades,
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits,
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey -
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile,
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie,
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact -
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back!

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass,
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past,
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart -
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part.

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend,
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end?

[Urwen]

Well, this kinda screams Merry and/or Pippin, but I am reluctant to make that guess, since I doubt you'd make it that obvious.

[Galadriel55]

Well, this kinda screams Merry and/or Pippin, but I am reluctant to make that guess, since I doubt you'd make it that obvious.

"You" is not Merry or Pippin, no. I will also point out that the final question requires more than just the identity of "you", but also the right context.

I am a little curious what made you think of Merry and Pippin in particular.

[Urwen]

The fact that they stayed behind after the last ships sailed (along with a few others.)


Plus, the way the riddle is phrased has a Hobbitish feel, and they're the ones who didn't sail.

[Huinesoron]

Well my thoughts are all over the place. :D

First off, fantastic filking job; I'm mentally singing it to the Tolkien Ensemble version. ^_^

Stanzas two and three make me think Beren (specifically Beren in the Nightshade, and Beren sometime towards the end, possibly even after his death). But stanza 4 doesn't work with that.

Stanza 4 does give me a Merry vibe, specifically the way he invokes Bilbo's tale at the Black Gate - "the eagles are coming!". Equally, the whole thing has a kind of Bilbo feel, especially the line about friends, which works well for the Battle of Five Armies.

The vessels sailing is an interesting one. "Build, save, and depart" - the only context I can put that in is the founding of Numenor, where I believe it was Elvish ships that carried the Men over there, and then left. That would probably point at Elrond, but I can't fit him to the rest.

The other feel I have for the fourth stanza and the last couplet makes that line refer to ships out of Balar coming to the Havens, and puts us somewhere around Earendil. I can make bits of the rest tie into that, but "turn back" and "return" strongly argue against a Fall of Gondolin setting.

Like I said - absolutely all over the place.

hS

[Urwen]

Mine too

I had a vague Finarfin thought, as per 'turn back' hint.

When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey - This line, on the other hand, makes me think of Frodo


Unless, the riddle doesn't refer to individuals, but a group, or a object of some sort...

[Galadriel55]

Lots of scattered thoughts indeed. :) I will point out a couple things.

The fact that they stayed behind after the last ships sailed (along with a few others.)

But when were they urged to stay or go? The "turn back" theme might be the easiest way to hit upon the answer, so you are right to give value to those lines. But remember the flip side of then too - there is Return, but there is also Carry On, and the answer has to explain both sides.

When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey - This line, on the other hand, makes me think of Frodo

So far, this is the only guess that went "ding". Not a 100% ding, but a 99.9% ding. Keep on with this thought.

[Urwen]

Maybe Fredegar Bolger, then?


Unless the Mirror of Galadriel is involved in the 'saw' line? In which case, it must be Sam, who was convinced to turn back in the Havens, and who saw the scouring of the Shire in said mirror long before the others did.

[Galadriel55]

Oh you are so close... You have the right identities, but not the right instanceof texts. This riddle was very much Huey-inspired, so I would recommend going to the textual source for this. When you have the right text, the lines will snap into place. And you will be able to answer the final question - the answer to which is, alas, not the Shire.

[Urwen]

The textual source is LOTR, right?

[Galadriel55]

The textual source is LOTR, right?

A very specific bit of LOTR, yes.


Editing to repost on new page:


When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day,
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray,
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air -
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here!

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades,
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits,
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey -
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile,
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie,
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact -
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back!

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass,
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past,
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart -
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part.

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend,
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end?

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so stanza 1:

...the flowers may rise in Spring, the trees may bud... and swaying beeches...

Up, up he went. ... At last, weary and feeling finally defeated...

Hard and cruel and bitter was the land that met his gaze... from it rose in huge columns a swirling smoke... Sam beheld Mount Doom, and the light of it... now glared against the stark rock faces, so that they seemed to be drenched with blood.

There he halted and sat down... if once he went beyond the crown of the pass and took one step veritably down into the land of Mordor, that step would be irrevocable. He could never come back.

All four are from various parts of The Tower of Cirith Ungol, but what I can't do is tie it in to the rest of the riddle. By the time we hit ruined homes and barrows I am completely at sea. :D

Final thought: back in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Sam directly says that "we're in the same tale still"; which could be the source of the "taking up the tale" line.

But I can't bring enough of this together to make a guess.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Up, up he went. ... At last, weary and feeling finally defeated...

This is the correct "ascent". However, it is not the correct section of text. The other passages are irrelevant. As you say, it kinda falls apart and you can't make the other lines work in that setting.

Take this info and pair it with Urwen's second-to-last post, that will give you the text you need.

Final thought: back in*The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Sam directly says that "we're in the same tale still"; which could be the source of the "taking up the tale" line.

Though I am not referencing this line, I am definitely referencing this concept, though illustrated differently. Actually, doing a bit of reading for this riddle made me think of how much more prevalent this theme is in LOTR in more subtle ways, though only voiced that time by Sam.

[Urwen]

I've figured it out!

When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day, - There was sun shining, and the branches of trees were waving and tossing in the wind
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray, - Then he seemed to see himself going along a dim passage, and climbing
an endless winding stair.
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air - a large red-brick building was being put up where it had stood; Black smoke seemed to cloud the surface of the Mirror
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here! - ‘I can’t stay here,’ he said wildly. ‘I must go home. They’ve dug up Bagshot Row, and I must go home!’

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades, - Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits, - Far away a figure came slowly down the road, faint and small at first, but growing larger and clearer as it approached; Brief and small but very vivid he caught a glimpse of Bilbo walking restlessly about his room.
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey - Then the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one.
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile, - The Scouring of the Shire
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie, - he saw Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep under a great dark cliff
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact - there’s the poor old Gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things on a barrow.
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back! - 'I must go home!’

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass, - A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past, - Huey explained this one
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart - and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part. - Being a mayor etc

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend, - ‘No, I’ll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all,’ he said. ‘But I hope I do get back some day. If what I’ve seen turns out true, somebody’s going to catch it hot!’
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end? - ‘There’s only stars, as I thought,’ he [Sam] said; and Frodo found that he was looking at the cool stars twinkling in
the silver basin


(Is that it?)

[Galadriel55]

Yes!!! You got it! :D

Explanation is mostly very much on point. A couple lines were intended differently, but it doesn't change the answer.

Old friends are fallen on the road - "There’s that Ted Sandyman a-cutting down trees as he shouldn’t. They didn’t ought to be felled: it’s that avenue beyond the Mill that shades the road to Bywater." This whole stanza is still Sam seeing the marring of the Shire.

Stanza 4 generally speaks about Frodo's vision of things in the distant past or future, which he might not yet understand.

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass, - "prophecies" is the most loose line, referring vaguely to Aragorn's return as King hitting Paths of the Dead en route, which in combination sorta fulfills multiple legends. The first part is correctly identified to the exact quote.

When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past, - "many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved". Specifically he sees the arrival of Elendil & co and the founding of Gondor, a story that must be completed by the Return of the King, the Battle for Gondor, and the destruction of the Ring.

When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart - Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West (ship coming to build Gondor); And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun (ship coming to save Gondor; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights (ship departing Middle-earth).

And, like you have rightly concluded, the thing Sam sees at first and Frodo sees at the end of their visions, is the reflection of STARS in the Mirror.

The floor is yours! *bows out*

[Urwen]

How about a simpler one?

He's done much for our welfare
So your lives I shall spare
But our leader he did slay
So you may not stay
And I shall meet his father, if here he finds his way
But you shall not, for you'll be far away

[Galadriel55]

Not as easy as you think ;)

This gives me Scouring vibes a bit - Frodo urges to spare Saruman's life due to former helpfulness, but banishes him and Wormtongue from the Shire. Among other things, the fate of Lothi comes up (the killed leader). But the father makes no sense, and "he" would have to refer to both Saruman and Grima.

[Urwen]

That's not it. This, too, is from a very specific source.

Also, the 'he' in the fifth line refers to 'father'.

The 'he' in the first line, the 'father', the speaker and the addressees are all different people, by the way, though loosely connected.

[Huinesoron]

This is very frustrating, because I feel like it's lurking just below the level of memory. I can so nearly feel it.

A wandering father ("finds his way") will always make me think of Hurin, but I don't think Turin had anyone with him in Brethil. Did some of his bandits show up for the Wanderings of Hurin? But then they would have to still be there when Hurin arrived, which is the opposite of what the riddle says.

The exile part also makes me think of Orodreth's words to Celegorm and Curufin, but that doesn't fit well. I do feel like it might be an elvish thing, but that might just be Orodreth getting in my head.

hS

[Urwen]

Oh, you're so close. So close. Just think a little more.

The riddle is a poetic reinterpretation of speaker's own words from [specific source].

[Huinesoron]

Oh, you're so close. So close. Just think a little more.

The riddle is a poetic reinterpretation of speaker's own words from [specific source].

Aha, and it really is:

Here Turin son of Hurin dwelt for a time, and he delivered the land from the Serpent of England. For this I give you your lives. But he scorned Brandir, right Chieftain of Brethil, and he slew him without justice or pity. Therefore I will not harbour you here. [...] If Hurin comes [...] then I shall be here to meet him[...] But you will not. Now go!

Hardang, Chieftain of Brethil, to Asgon and his men. It must be especially bitter for them, given that Asgon's last words to Turin were telling him to go away and never come back.

hS

[Urwen]

Indeed it's so.

Although I think you meant to say 'serpent of Angband', not 'England'.

[Huinesoron]

Although I think you meant to say 'serpent of Angband', not 'England'.

Oh no, yeah, in his last years Tolkien did a complete 180 on this, he changed a bunch of Silm stuff to be explicitly anti-England. The most obvious was Angband > England, but we also have Gothmog > George III and Morgoth > Elizabeth I for some reason. It's all there in NoME; part 2, I think. :D:D:D

Anyway!

One is ancient, ever-new
One lurks deep in shadow black
One came from stone and stone followed
One rides high but falls swift
One lies low amid the loam
But which am I?

Yeah I can't make it rhyme, sorry. (That's not a clue.)

hS

[Urwen]

I have a feeling that the descriptions are based on the elvish names.

[Galadriel55]

I get the sense that there are supposed to be 6 of this type of thing, so that naming 5 will lead to the 6th by process of elimination. But there aren't any groups of 6.

In terms of an actual guess - I agree with Urwen that some lines beg to be translated back to Elvish, but the only one I had a thought about was "Ancient, ever-new" sounds like Vana.

[Urwen]

To follow up on that -

One is ancient, ever-new - Vana?
One lurks deep in shadow black - Melkor?
One came from stone and stone followed - Aule?
One rides high but falls swift - Orome?
One lies low amid the loam - Ulmo?

[Huinesoron]

I have a feeling that the descriptions are based on the elvish names.

Okay I really like this but it is very wrong.

I get the sense that there are supposed to be 6 of this type of thing, so that naming 5 will lead to the 6th by process of elimination. But there aren't any groups of 6.


This is also wrong: there are five. Or four. Or, arguably, 16/17, but we're not doing that. :D

To follow up on that -

One is ancient, ever-new - Vana?
One lurks deep in shadow black - Melkor?
One came from stone and stone followed - Aule?
One rides high but falls swift - Orome?
One lies low amid the loam - Ulmo?

Again, I LOVE this but it's wildly off-track. I'm only quoting it because I want to note that "loam" here is a word for soil, not a typo for "foam".

hS

[Urwen]

I've got nothing, then.

I have had passing thoughts about Durins and Houses of Gondolin, but both lead nowhere.

[Huinesoron]

I've got nothing, then.

I have had passing thoughts about Durins and Houses of Gondolin, but both lead nowhere.

Still a long way off track.

Like the last few, this is a specific passage - actually a specific poem. Even more specifically, it's the opening of a poem we never hear in full.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, that poem might not be online, but this one (https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Long_List_of_the_Ents) does come close.

[Huinesoron]

Well, that poem might not be online, but this one (https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Long_List_of_the_Ents) does come close.

Interesting; does it fit, and can you answer the question?

hS

[Urwen]

One is ancient, ever-new - Eldest of all, the elf-children
One lurks deep in shadow black - Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses
One came from stone and stone followed - Ent the earthborn, old as mountains
One rides high but falls swift - Man the mortal, master of horses
One lies low amid the loam - Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers
But which am I? - Well, both singers are described by the third and fifth line, so it's a toss-up.

[Huinesoron]

One is ancient, ever-new - Eldest of all, the elf-children
One lurks deep in shadow black - Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses
One came from stone and stone followed - Ent the earthborn, old as mountains
One rides high but falls swift - Man the mortal, master of horses
One lies low amid the loam - Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers
But which am I? - Well, both singers are described by the third and fifth line, so it's a toss-up.

That is entirely correct. :D Either the third or the fifth would be the right answer. Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

This one is...kinda out there.


I followed him far to a distant land
Where he had been exiled by his own hand
I arrived to shelter, his humble abode
A pitiful cavern his comrades called home
He welcomed me there, but bid me farewell
So I left and pondered what I should tell

[Huinesoron]

This one is...kinda out there.

I followed him far to a distant land
Where he had been exiled by his own hand
I arrived to shelter, his humble abode
A pitiful cavern his comrades called home
He welcomed me there, but bid me farewell
So I left and pondered what I should tell

I've been trying to shake off the obvious option, but it's still rattling round my head, so: are you Beleg Cuthalion, hassling Turin in Mim's cave after he kicked himself out of Doriath?

Or, and this has literally occurred to me just while writing, are you Melkor, popping in to see Feanor at Formenos and being turned away as a "jail-crow of Mandos"?

hS

[Urwen]

I've been trying to shake off the obvious option, but it's still rattling round my head, so: are you Beleg Cuthalion, hassling Turin in Mim's cave after he kicked himself out of Doriath?

Or, and this has literally occurred to me just while writing, are you Melkor, popping in to see Feanor at Formenos and being turned away as a "jail-crow of Mandos"?

hS


Bold of you to call Formenos a cave, or to think that Feanor welcomed Melkor, ever.