Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Alcarillo]

Lmp, I think you've forgotten me on your list! I've decided on being an old retired sea captain, married to one of the women of the village.

Now who wants to marry me? :p

[Diamond18]

You know, they are a lot of wives and no husbands so far.... Are we all widows? Divorcees? Is this Massechussettes? (Please take no offense to my political humor)

You have a point there. Lhuna and I are childless. :eek:

No offence but I hope some guys are brave enough to sign up for husbandry. :p

Edit: Alc, when I asked LMP earlier (in PMs) about it, he said he'd be making the decision about who was married to whom. So we are in his hands.

[Lhunardawen]

Yeah. And it looks like you, Roa, and I are going to be wives without husbands. :p
Why else do you think I'm childless? :p

[littlemanpoet]

I think I have you all covered for now. Things happen fast! :eek:

[Alcarillo]

Edit: Alc, when I asked LMP earlier (in PMs) about it, he said he'd be making the decision about who was married to whom. So we are in his hands.
Yikes! :eek:

Marry me off well, lmp!

[Lhunardawen]

I would seriously pity the husband of one who has lost all her children in their infancy. :p

[Valier]

Ok I will be an eligible young maiden/ Gardener. I grow vegetables very well.:D

[Cailín]

Sign me up, if you will, Elempi.

I see you have many women (and definitely too many eligible ones) there already. Do with me whatever you wish. As for occupations - if I need any - I'd like to be a matchmaker. ;)

Oh, and because Gurthang and Sleepy asked, I am modding the game after Kath and will definitely not give up my spot. I have been waiting to mod since Ang's game. :)

[Kath]

I would like to be a child who has a giant crush on Kath.
Stalker :D

And yes I'm modding after lmp.

[Sleepy Ranger]

You have a point there. Lhuna and I are childless. :eek:

No offence but I hope some guys are brave enough to sign up for husbandry. :p

Edit: Alc, when I asked LMP earlier (in PMs) about it, he said he'd be making the decision about who was married to whom. So we are in his hands.

Gasp! Diamond, marry me! Ahem, I mean I'd prefer being a recluse but *shrug* ok, feel free to have me married to anyone you want Elempi. :)

I've decided to change my career. I shall be a 'Wanderer from the days of old, now settled (and married if applicable) in this village.'

[Kuruharan]

Diamond ~ wife (no children) ~ Battledore Maker -- Made the wicker beaters

I think I can see why people might be reluctant to marry Diamond…and even if she is married why she might not have kids.

I also have another question I didn't realize before I was going to have.

If the evil wizard chooses a gifted villager to curse, the gifted villager loses the gift but does not turn into a werewolf ... this time. The good wizard is informed of the loss of the gifting.

-and-

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day. They do not know who each other is unless the good wizard tells them. (why wouldn't the good wizard tell the gifteds who each other is?)

I didn't know that second bit was going to be part of the deal. I think this does have the potential to tip the balance to the werewolves a little too much.

Think about it. The Evil Wizard curses a gifted. Nothing happens (or at least to the Evil Wizard it seems like nothing happens). Alarm bells go off that something is up. The natural thing is to either try to kill them or curse them again. If I were the Evil Wizard I'd try to curse them again because I'd want to know who they were and what they knew. Since the recently double cursed and new werewolf will know the identity of the Good Wizard (at least) and the other gifteds (possibly)...I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.

That at least is one reason why the Good Wizard would not want to tell the gifteds about the others.

I think the danger to the Good Wizard here is rather...large.

Unless there is some rule I missed reading about not being able to curse the same person two nights in a row (which I'm not sure this would solve the problem) I don't think there is any mitigating factor to this built into the rules.

I humbly submit to His Excellent Modship that this issue needs to be addressed.

I would have sent this by PM, except I figured that since the Official Announcement has been made, all rule discussions were better done in the open.

[Oddwen]

Why can't it be in Juuuune, I'll not have a job then...

I'd love to sign up...if LMP feels that my schedule wouldn't be too restrictive. (I have few evenings, in the mornings I'm tired as heck) See the latest Midsomer Mawlins for a sample.

If accepted, I'd be an aviary keeper, eligibility to be decided by the Imp.

I'd also like to sign up to mod another game sometime this summer, but we'll have to see just when as I don't know if/where/when I'll be working.


Also...the Evil Wizard can choose a Werebear. Is the Werebear on the Evil Wizard's team? Usually, the WB is on its own team.
Will there be a restriction on the number of Werewolves the Evil Wizard can convert? Although no - that's the only way the EW can win.

[littlemanpoet]

The evil wizard can make as many werewolves as s/he can get away with.

An addition to the rules: If there are more then 20 players the following rule will be added. There are 4 to 6 werewolves, there will be 2 killings each Night; if 7 or more werewolves, there will be 3 killings each Night.

I've decided to go with no werebear or cobbler in this game. It's complicated enough. Just werewolves.

As to Kuruharan's problem, the Good Wizard can supply known innocents at will without tipping the players as to who the seer is (or was). This of course means that the good wizard becomes known, but that's the good wizard's call.

[Diamond18]

I think I can see why people might be reluctant to marry Diamond…and even if she is married why she might not have kids.

Ha! I'll have you know I've already had an offer... :p

Oh, by the way, LMP, you can take away the definition of Battledore Maker from my description. I only included it so you didn't have to look it up for your death scene-ing.

[mormegil]

I haven't stayed current on the whole discussion but I would be interested in playing in LMP's game if possible.

[Gurthang]

Gurthang, I've done 5 dry runs of this game and the modifications I've just edited into the rules have shown to create a level playing field.


Sounds excellant, I like the revisions. Any chance we could find out about those outcomes? :D

I do have one other question, though. What does the Seer do? It's almost useless for him to dream, because the role of any player he dreams of may change before the game is over.

Oh, and because Gurthang and Sleepy asked, I am modding the game after Kath and will definitely not give up my spot. I have been waiting to mod since Ang's game.

Okay, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. So it's Kath, then Cailín, and then either me or Sleepy, depending on the timeframe. Now, don't think of that as an 'official' list either, there may have been others who already are going ahead of me, but I just don't want to get overlooked this summer (but that's not likely).

[Kuruharan]

Ha! I'll have you know I've already had an offer

Pawh-hawh-hawh-hawh!!!

Diamond, marry me! Ahem, I mean I'd prefer being a recluse but *shrug* ok

I'd hardly call that a stirring expression of undying passion!

*falls down to ground and laughs uncontrollably*

What does the Seer do?

Meat-shield. The Seer can say things and stand and die in place of the Good Wizard.

because the role of any player he dreams of may change before the game is over.

So? It's part of the fun.

[Diamond18]

*Beats Kuru senseless with battledore*

:p

[Kuruharan]

Missed. Your aim is terrible. ;) And anyway, getting me senseless is a short trip.

Ahem, to give this post some semblance of utility...I also just had one more idea regarding the switching of sides that I'd like to air...

Some obstinate individuals might actually attempt to sabotage their conversions. Say for example we have a Seer. That Seer is cursed by the Evil Wizard. The next day the Seer announces that they are no longer the Seer and if they last too much longer the village might want to lynch them to be on the safe side. I've known such silly altruism of this nature to happen before *coughBoromir88cough*. This would present all kinds of quandaries all over the place.

Now, admittedly, this might just be part of the game, but I wanted this possibility to be out in the open since this is going to be something if a different format for this game.

[littlemanpoet]

Dueling Wizards Werewolf Rules

There are two wizards, and no other gifted at the beginning of the game, which must have a minimum of 20 players, and an arbitrary maximum (first time) of 30. The two wizard roles are assigned from a list of volunteers who are willing to play the roles.

The two wizards don't know who each other are. One is evil, one is good. Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other.


Evil Wizard: each Night the evil wizard picks a villager to curse as a werewolf. The new werewolf is immediately informed and the mod requests a kill choice, which the werewolf provides by the end of the 24 hours. On the first Night of the game, the Evil Wizard chooses three werewolves; thereafter s/he chooses one per Night.

The werewolves do not know each other's identity because while they are werewolves at Night, they cannot detect the identities underlying the curses. When there are multiple werewolves, and they make differing kill choices, the person with the most werewolf "votes" is killed. If there is a tie, the sub-mod for the evil wizard PMs back to each werewolf about the others' choices, and serves as a go-between until the werewolves have come to a majority choice.

Note: Werewolves do not PM each other and therefore cannot debate with each other; thus, they are not going to find out each others' identities. If in some odd circumstance, a werewolf gets the most votes for the werewolf kill, the evil wizard has the right to overrule the choice, and the werewolves are told to make a different pick. If in some even odder circumstance, the werewolves choose the evil wizard as their kill, the evil wizard of course has the right to overrule their choice. In a 20 or more player game, if there are 4 to 6 werewolves, there are 2 kills per Night; if there are 7 or more werewolves, there are 3 kills per Night.

If the evil wizard chooses a gifted villager to curse, the gifted villager loses the gift but does not turn into a werewolf ... this time. The good wizard is informed of the loss of the gifting.

If the evil wizard picks the good wizard at Night, he is informed that he has discovered the good wizard, and has the option from then on to call out the good wizard to battle during any Day.

The evil wizard may choose to inform one or more werewolves who one or more other werewolves are; but this is a risky option and should be used with great care, considering the possible consequences.

The evil wizard is allowed to lie to his were-creatures.

Good Wizard: each Night the good wizard picks a villager to scry.

1. If the good wizard scries the evil wizard, the good wizard is informed of that, and can call out the evil wizard to battle during any Day, which results in the death of both wizards.

2. If the good wizard scries a werewolf, the werewolf is turned back into an innocent by the good wizard's power.

3. If the good wizard finds an innocent, the good wizard has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being seer, ranger, and hunter. If a gifted is de-gifted by the evil wizard's curse, the good wizard may assign that gift to another. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent. The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

NOTE: There may only be one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time.

The good wizard may choose to inform one or more gifteds who one or more of the gifteds are.

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day. They do not know who each other is unless the good wizard tells them. (why wouldn't the good wizard tell the gifteds who each other is?)

The good wizard is allowed to mis-inform and/or withhold information from his gifteds.

The evil wizard and werewolves win when the werewolves equal or exceed the number of innocents. The villagers and good wizard win when there is no evil wizard left, and no werewolves left.

There are no shirriffs, no werebears, and no cobblers.

If the good wizard and the evil wizard choose the same previously innocent villager on the same Night, the two wizards discover each other's identity by means of the contest. Since the evil wizard still wants a werewolf, the good wizard must choose whether to let the villager die as a casualty of the wrenching experience of the contest, or let the villager survive and become a werewolf..

Just to be perfectly clear: a wizard battle always results in the death of both wizards, and may only happen during the Day.

There is a vote for lynching every Day. If a wizard is voted to be lynched, he will be lynched but cannot die that way, and is thus forced to declare himself, and the opposing wizard can call him/her out for a wizard battle. The wizard cannot be killed by lynching; instead, nobody dies that Day.

If the evil wizard dies, the werewolves are informed of each other's identity, and revert from there on to traditional werewolf group dynamics.

Each Day and Night will be 24 hours; if such a time frame proves somehow unworkable, it may be changed (with notice of course!) during the game.

Order of Night Activities:
1. Evil wizard picks whom to curse.
2. Good wizard pickes whom to scry.
3. Affected players are informed of results of #1 & #2 (if both wizards pick same villager, this phase gets longer but is completed before the next phase begins).
4. Ranger picks whom to save.
5. Seer picks whom to dream.
6. Hunter picks whom to hunt.
7. Werewolves pick whom to kill.
Note: Steps 4 - 7 can happen simultaneously, but will be recorded by the moderator in the order as listed so as to keep the game straight.

Player sign up

# player ~ relationship ~ occupation

1 Diamond ~ gammer married to Nogrod & mother of eligible young maidens Azaelia & Firefoot ~ Battledore Maker with strong forearms from battledore swinging

2 Celuien ~ eligible young maiden [okay with wife/mother or child] ~ Healer and Cupper

3 Caranlondien ~ eligible young maiden, eldest daughter of Sleepy Ranger & Roa Aoife (big sister of Thin & Glir) ~ Sled-Team Driver

4 Roa Aoife ~ wife of Sleepy Ranger, and mother of Thinlomien ~ weaver

5 Nogrod ~ gaffer married to Diamond and father to eligible young maidens ~ retired jester who has many permanent bruises from battledores

6 Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant ~ eligible young maiden (or wife of Nilp if he plays) ~ Baker

7 Kath ~ eligible young maiden ~ minstrel

8 Lommy~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, younger sister of Glirdan and Caranlondien ~ little girl who steals other children's candy

9 Lhunardawen ~ wife (no children) ~ jeweler

10 Glirdan ~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, older brother of Thinlomien, younger brother of Caranlondien ~ with giant crush on Kath (occupation aplenty!)

11 Valier ~ not so eligible young maiden ~ gardener

12 Sleepy Ranger ~ married to Roa Aoife, father of Thinlomien ~ Wanderer from the days of old, now settled in the village

13 Kitanna ~ ~

14 Firefoot ~ tomboyish young maiden (engaged to stuffy, boring, rich jerk) & daughter of Nogrod and Diamond; younger sister of Azaelia ~ artist

15 Alcarillo ~ gaffer married to Cailín ~ old retired sea captain

16 Cailín ~ gammer married to Alcarillo ~ match maker

17 Oddwen ~ orphan child, in the care of Lalaith ~ aviary keeper (filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens & other fowl and keeps them locked up in boxes)

18 mormegil ~ widower ~ retired mariner and currently mayor overseeing honorary functions

19 Feanor ~ husband lost at sea, widowed and eligible (with eyes for the smith?) ~ suspicious and somewhat creepy shepherdess with a love of alliteration

20 Azaelia of Willowbottom ~ eligible young maiden & daughter to Diamond and Nogrod [open to whims of the mod] ~ (apprentice?) seamstress

21 the phantom ~ single semi-eligible young man ~ loud, unpredictable, adventurer

22 Naria ~ young eligible maiden (willing to change status) ~ servant who empties and cleans chamber pots

23 Jenny Hallu ~ ~

24 The Saucepan Man ~ husband ~ barkeep

25 Lalaith ~ frivolous aunt and guardian of Oddwen ~

26 Eonwe ~ ~

Gurthang? ~ ~ stable-hand (if he plays)

Nilpaurion Felagund? ~ hubby of Dancing Spawn if he plays

[mormegil]

3. If the good wizard finds an innocent, the good wizard has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being seer, ranger, and hunter. If a gifted is de-gifted by the evil wizard's curse, the good wizard may assign that gift to another. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent.

So does this mean that there cannot be multiple seers, for example?

In a 20 or more player game, if there are 4 to 6 werewolves, there are 2 kills per Night; if there are 7 or more werewolves, there are 3 kills per Night.

Does this seem excessive? Or does the number of kills lower after the population is less than 20? Otherwise it may be overkill and exponentially shorten the game near the end if the village is unsuccessful in finding wolves.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I wonder if dancing spawn would accept my proposal. ;)

I'll be on the reserve list, vzv. I still have time considerations to think of. Although I do want to join.

[littlemanpoet]

So does this mean that there cannot be multiple seers, for example?Correct.

Does this seem excessive? Or does the number of kills lower after the population is less than 20? Otherwise it may be overkill and exponentially shorten the game near the end if the village is unsuccessful in finding wolves.I did 4 dry runs with this option. It varied. In some games the evil wizard couldn't get more than 4 werewolves no matter what he did. In another game he had as many as seven. If the good wizard, seer, and hunter have such rotten luck as to never uncurse, dream of, or kill a werewolf, then that's all part of the game. I don't have my notes with me so I can't refer to any details, but every single one of the dry runs were edge of your seat "who's gonna win this thing?" games. Two of them came down to the last 3 players left, like a real classic game. Just a note: once the wizards are gone, this does turn into a classic game.

[mormegil]

So does this mean that there cannot be multiple seers, for example?
Correct.


Forgive me if this has already been discussed but what happens in the fairly probable scenario that the Good Wizard has choosen a Seer, Hunter and Ranger and none of them have been killed and the next scry is that of an ordo? Nothing happens?

[Firefoot]

Maybe I should revise my stance (being that this is actually going to be some other Downer - provided we have enough menfolk around...)... he doesn't have to be a boring rich jerk (unless he wants to be...). I just don't want to be getting married to him :p

[littlemanpoet]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed but what happens in the fairly probable scenario that the Good Wizard has choosen a Seer, Hunter and Ranger and none of them have been killed and the next scry is that of an ordo? Nothing happens?
The good wizard has another known innocent. That is all. And the good wizard can count his or her lucky stars that the game is going so well for him/her such that all three gifteds are alive and well and profitable to the good team. That frankly never happened in the dry runs.

Speaking of dry runs........:

#1 - 30 players

-Lasted 11 Days and Nights.
-Most # of werewolves: 5, Night 4 to Night 6.
-Evil wizard tried to curse the good wizard on Night 5 and so ID'd the good wizard, but got no 6th werewolf.
-Good wizard scried the evil wizard on Night 7.
-Good wizard called the evil wizard out to battle at the beginning of Day 7, both died.
-Only on Night 4 did the good team have all gifteds functioning.
-There was one kill per Night on N1, N2, N8-N11. 2 kills per Night N3-N7.
-On Day 7 after the wizard battle, there were 3 werewolves, one seer, and one ranger
-The 1st seer was killed N4, 2nd seer killed N7.
-There were 4 players left Day 10 but they lynched an innocent; N11 the werewolf killed an innocent. Ranger versus Werewolf only 2 players left: Werewolves win.

#2 - 30 players

-Game over as of Night 8.
-Night 1 good wizards scries 1 werewolf & turns innocent: evil team has 2 werewolves (not looking good for evil team)
Day 1 innocent lynched.
Night 2 a 3rd werewolf, good wizard picks seer, seer dreams an innocent, an innocnet killed.
Day 2 the villagers try to lynche the good wizard, who is thusly ID'd for all to know. no deaths.
Night 3 there's a 4th werewolf, good wizard picks a ranger, ranger protects seer, seer dreams an innocent, werewolves kill 2 innocents whom the seer happened to have dreamed about the previous Night.
Day 3 another innocent lynched.
Night 4 a 5th werewolf is picked, but the good wizard scries a werewolf, uncurses and makes innocent: 4 werewolves; ranger protects an innocent, seer dreams an innocent, werewolves kill one innocent and the ranger (not because of whom s/he was protecting).
Day 4 an innocent is lynched.
Night 5 the evil wizard re-curses the werewolf the good wizard had just uncursed: 6 werewolves; good wizard creates another ranger; new ranger protects seer; seer dreams an innocent; a former werewolf who got uncursed is killed by the werewolves & an innocent is also killed.
Day 5 an innocent is again lynched.
Night 6 the evil wizard turns one of the seer's known innocents into a werewolf: 7 werewolves; but the good wizard turns another werewolf back to innocent: 6 werewolves; the new ranger protects a werewolf; the seer dreams an innocent; the werewolves again kill an uncursed werewolf and an innocent.
Day 6 yet another innocent is lynched.
Night 7 the evil wizard re-curses yet another former werewolf: 7. .... good wizard uncurses another werewolf: 6. .... ranger protects seer, seer finally dreams a werewolf! ... werewolves kill 2 innocents.
Day 7 the seer's dreamed werewolf is lynched, because the seer tells the good wizard whom everybody knows the ID of, and it becomes a matter of course that this werewolf is to be lynched. (no dice rolling this Day)
Night 8 the two wizards aim at the same player and the good wizard finally IDs the evil wizard (very late by game standards ... too late); the good wizard decides to let the player die rather than let it become another werewolf. ranger protects an uncursed werewolf (now innocent); ser dreams another innocent; werewolves kill the ranger and an innocent. With 4 werewolves, an evil wizard, 4 innocents, and one good wizard remaining, the werewolves win again.

3 more dry runs to report, but that's enough fodder for now. I'm pretty sure that there were strategy maneuvers that could have gotten made in favor of either team, but being only one dice rolling arbiter, I didn't think of them.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ahem. I'm in. :cool:

[Gurthang]

First, I'm assuming that you're rolling dice or doing some other random probability thing to pick who is chosen by the wizards, wolves, and villagers each Day/Night.

But I can tell that some things you aren't 'rolling dice'. I'm thinking that you're probably having the good wizard call the evil out to battle as soon as he is found, unless there is a distinct reason not to. This makes sense to me. I also guess, mostly from the second analysis, that the evil wizard will avoid battle at almost all costs. This is probably how it will go, but I think these games are unpredictable enough that it might not be so. But these facts makes me again think that the balance greatly favors the evil side. I think that allowing one of the gifteds, probably the ranger, to be repeated unlimitedly would help to reset the balance.

Although, I wonder how you are choosing whether a bear, wolf, or cobbler are chosen by the evil wizard. Especially since there hasn't been a bear yet...
:p

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Please count me in--This sounds like a thrill! :)

A note--There have been problems with my schedule before, time zones and my status as a student being what they are, so I'll leave it up to our genius of a mod-god to determine if I should participate or not. (and I do hope he says yes).

Either way, I look forward to this game. It looks like a double dose of confusion, suspicion, and good, new-fashioned Werewolf fun.

Cheers!

[Caranlondien]

Although, I wonder how you are choosing whether a bear, wolf, or cobbler are chosen by the evil wizard.
I think LMP said that he's decided to use only werewolves, no werebears or cobblers. Which I suppose is why he decided to allow multiple kills when there is a large number of wolves, since the plus to having werebears on your team would be that they get to make kills too.

[Roa_Aoife]

Just a quick question: If the Wolves decide to kill the Good Wizard, can they?

[littlemanpoet]

Just a quick question: If the Wolves decide to kill the Good Wizard, can they?
No.

As Caranlondien has indicated, no werebears, cobblers, or shirriffs. Actually, my reason for multiple kills had little to do with werebears and cobblers. I really had already decided against them early on, and don't know why I opened the door to them again. The real reason was that with 30 players, I needed to have either multiple lynchings are some kind of accelerated means of deaths, or this game could take a verrrrrry looooong time. So I hit upon the multiple kills per so many werewolves idea, and it works. :)

When any gifted is killed, that gifted can be replaced by the good wizard ... the very next Night.

I was rolling dice, except where obvious strategy decisions presented themselves ... such as the good wizard revealing known innocents as soon as they were useful, at least once the good wizard's identity was known. And the evil wizard wanting to stay hidden. and the good wizard wanting to battle the evil wizard as soon as possible to end the multiplication of werewolves.

You're on the list, Azaelia. I need a relationship and an occupation.

EDIT: Feanor, your post was so short I almost missed it. You're in.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'd like to be a suspicious shepherdess with a love of alliteration, if you don't mind. I suppose I can also be young and somewhat eligible, though rumors abound about that young smith that's been seen around.

[Diamond18]

I have a question -- not about the game, but rather about the relationships. Since it's medieval, are the eligible young things supposed to live at home with parents, like in a traditional medieval setting, or are you taking liberties with that? I just noted that there are more eligible young'uns than mothers, which seems odd, unless Roa and her husband have been quite prolific. :D

[littlemanpoet]

At home with mums and dads. I may have to ask some of the young eligible's to reconsider. Seeing as there are more women than men in the game so far (still at least 10 slots available), we may have to consider the possibility of young wives whose men are sailors gone to sea for months, no knowing when they'll return ... or widows whose husbands have been lost at sea. But we'll leave that decision for later unless somebody really wants to jump at these possibilities....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

We'll call my husband lost at sea then. I'll be a re-eligible, yet somewhat creepy, widowed shepherdess.

Better?

[the phantom]

This village needs an arrogant healer. Does anyone know a Barrow-Downer who has experience in that role? ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I do, I do! Silly phantom, YOU have that experience.

[Lhunardawen]

Healer, yes. Arrogant, no. At least I don't think so.

[the phantom]

Oh, you're right Fea- I've been an arrogant healer. Count me in, then.

And why do so many people have "eligible" next to their roles? Is there a game-related reason for it, or are there just a lot of dateless Downers eager to advertise their single status?

[Diamond18]

And why do so many people have "eligible" next to their roles? Is there a game-related reason for it, or are there just a lot of dateless Downers eager to advertise their single status?

Heh heh heh, ah me. Well, unless you believe that I'm really married and a battledore maker, yeah, the descriptions all have to do with the game. :p

Elempi is having it so that all the villagers are related to each other in some way and have specific ages. We've been able to picked whether we want to be old, young, married, or un-married. He's going to choose who to match with whom re: spouses, parents, siblings, etc.

So at the moment... if you were to say "I will be a husband" you run the risk of LMP marrying you off to either me, Roa, or Lhuna since we're on the list as wives. Or you could be a swinging bachelor and run after all the eligible females. Or you could be an older widower... etc.

[mormegil]

Could I be an old widower? I could be a retired mayor of sorts.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I guess my relationship ought to be eligible young maiden...And how about an occupation as a seamstress or apprentice seamstress?

LMP, feel free to change my relationship if you think it ought to be something else...I notice there are a lot of eligible young maidens other than myself out there, which does lead to an unbalanced village, age and role-wise.

And as for the "eligible"s, Phantom, we were instructed to give some kind of relationship, in order to make the death scenes more interesting...I am a dateless downer (I love the alliteration of that, and it's a phrase that has kicked out the song that was just in my head, and is now running in delighted circles around my brain) but not really in the mood to advertise (I stress enough about guys I know in person!). I just hopped on the bandwaggon :rolleyes:

[Celuien]

I may have to ask some of the young eligible's to reconsider.

I don't mind changing my status. Feel free to marry me off (or make me a child) if it helps the balance.

This village needs an arrogant healer.

Does this mean we'll be getting into fights over who's the better healer? :D

[Sleepy Ranger]

Does this mean we'll be getting into fights over who's the better healer? :D

Its quite obvious I'm the best healer here despite the fact that I'm not a healer.

[Diamond18]

Well still we only have one mother -- LMP you can make me a mother if it helps. I'll be an older mother of one (or more) of the eligible maidens -- married or widowed as the population of available husbands dictates. Unless that is you really want me to be childess.

[Nogrod]

= Diamond
Well still we only have one mother -- LMP you can make me a mother if it helps. I'll be an older mother of one (or more) of the eligible maidens -- married or widowed as the population of available husbands dictates.


Would you marry me, Diamond? ;)

We might be an old couple (I'm a retired guy already), with eligibles, and thence helpful to the set up?

PS: lmp. I'll try to post my points tomorrow - today's WW was just too tight to allow any time to come up with anything else... You know. Just check Diamond's game's latest twists and see for it yourself... Really great gaming going on there!

[Diamond18]

I have no objections to such a match if our mod god LMP doesn't. :smokin: We could be two old folks with a passel of young maidens... beating off the impudent young suitors with my battledores. Yes, I like this prospect very much. :D

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I have no objections to such a match if our mod god LMP doesn't. :smokin: We could be two old folks with a passel of young maidens... beating off the impudent young suitors with my battledores. Yes, I like this prospect very much. :D

Hee. I love this image. I hereby sign myself up to be a member of your said passel of young maidens just because I love the image of an old woman and man beating people off with battledores (whatever those are--I'm not familiar with the term *goes for dictionary* :p )

[Diamond18]

Hee. I love this image. I hereby sign myself up to be a member of your said passel of young maidens just because I love the image of an old woman and man beating people off with battledores (whatever those are--I'm not familiar with the term *goes for dictionary* :p )

Wicker beaters for beating dust out of rugs.

[Caranlondien]

As has already been noted, there are a lot of eligible young maidens in this town ;)
I don't mind switching to something else, either, if it helps. Actually, I think all the roles look pretty fun!

[Valier]

If it helps, I can be a not so eligible young maiden...:p a real looker....:rolleyes:

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Wicker beaters for beating dust out of rugs.

Yay! That's a suitably frightening and fairly comical image...I was picturing these big, thick two-by-four-ish wooden things. :p Shows how much I know. :rolleyes:

[Diamond18]

I got it from This Site (http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/a.html) posted by Mith in TiGJ. Many fun occupations abound. :D

[Nogrod]

I have no objections to such a match if our mod god LMP doesn't. :smokin: We could be two old folks with a passel of young maidens... beating off the impudent young suitors with my battledores. Yes, I like this prospect very much. :D

If lmp has nothing against it, I think we would just be a perfect match - and if Zali would be our daughter - well, what's better? But Zali, beware, you could get yourself spanked with the battledores, if you're not nice! Not to talk of those suitors... :D

[Firefoot]

Haha, I'll be one of your daughters, too, if you and LMP don't mind... :D

[littlemanpoet]

All the requests have been added and accounted for.

The Rules and Player List have been updated here (http://www.forums.barrowdowns.com./showpost.php?p=463522&postcount=2770).

This should be fun! :D

[mormegil]

I said retired Mayor but a retired merchant of the sea fits nicely as well. I made a good living and can now rest and relax in peace and quiet...or can I? :rolleyes:

[Diamond18]

1 Diamond ~ gammer married to Nogrod & mother of eligible young maidens [maybe widowed?]~ Battledore Maker with strong forearms from battledore swinging

Does the "maybe widowed" apply to me or one of my daughters? The latter I hope because I don't think it's very sporting to kill Noggie off before the game even starts. :D

Better go practice my battledore swinging. Must protect the virture of Zali and Firefoot. Especially with tp around.

[the phantom]

Does this mean we'll be getting into fights over who's the better healer?
Oh my, there's another healer in the town? I definitely didn't look at the list too carefully. I will think of something else.
Elempi is having it so that all the villagers are related to each other in some way and have specific ages. We've been able to picked whether we want to be old, young, married, or un-married.
All right then. Let's get this taken care of.

I will be a loud, unpredictable, single, young adventurer. Every spring I ride off on my horse (with no name) in search of excitement. I've been captured by orcs, rescued by elves, captured again, escaped myself, slain an Oliphaunt with an arrow to the eye, captured a Mirkwood spider and brought him home as a pet, robbed a highway robber, gone over the falls of Rauros in a barrel, climbed a mallorn tree, beaten a hobbit in a riddle contest, and have even withstood a full day of conversation with an ent.

As far as the lasses, I certainly think they're nice to look at and enjoyable to chat with, but I've always fancied myself as making a poor husband on account of my adventerous spirit. But that doesn't stop the ladies from trying, and certainly doesn't stop me from flirting.

I look on this whole wizard/werewolf situation as a great adventure. I want nothing more than to survive long enough to have a bit of fun.

[Diamond18]

How did I miss this before...

5 Nogrod ~ gaffer married to Diamond and father to elitible young maidens ~ retired jester who has many permanent bruises from battledores

Ho ho, very funny, ha ha, it is to laugh. (http://www.wiseacre-gardens.com/buttons/pics/sounds/daffy09.wav)

[Naria]

Lmp, is there still room on your list? Your game sounds weird yet interesting....I'd like to join in too!! :D

[JennyHallu]

*approaches grumbling and pushed by werewolf imp (not to be confused with lmp)*

I'll play. And I'm fairly open to moddish whims.

[Farael]

Hey LMP (and others). I'm quite tempted to play, but I must force myself not to. Not only I'm starting physics on the spring term next week (how boring is that?) but this game looks to be really interesting and possibly long and I just don't want to be "half in".

But still, I wanted to send a general kudos to those of you who helped LMP get this game going and LMP himself. I'll surely join Wizards II if it ever happens.

[Roa_Aoife]

Gasp! Diamond, marry me! Ahem, I mean I'd prefer being a recluse but *shrug* ok, feel free to have me married to anyone you want Elempi.

Would you marry me, Diamond?

Well, Lhuna and I certainly feel left out....:rolleyes:

Since Diamond turned you down, I'll marry you, Sleepy. That is, if Ka doesn't mind. *nervously waits to be beaten senseless by THE Ka*

[Sleepy Ranger]

Since Diamond turned you down, I'll marry you, Sleepy. That is, if Ka doesn't mind. *nervously waits to be beaten senseless by THE Ka*

I'm pretty certain I know why you want to marry me. ;)
Anywho, sure and if possible could we have Thinlomien as our daughter?

[Roa_Aoife]

Certainly. Nogrod, I hereby adopt your daughter. I'd be willing to take on a few eligible maidens if necessary, as well.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Certainly. Nogrod, I hereby adopt your daughter. I'd be willing to take on a few eligible maidens if necessary, as well.

No, never! I digress! We need no eligible maides with us, they're a waste of money! However if Glirdan wishes to be Thinlomien's twin brother, he may.

[Nogrod]

Certainly. Nogrod, I hereby adopt your daughter.

You are most welcome! Don't spank her too roughly though... she can also behave, sometimes. :p

[Roa_Aoife]

Don't worry- sleepy plans to spoil her rotten. We also agreed that we'll take on Caran as our daughter, if she's willing.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Don't worry- sleepy plans to spoil her rotten. We also agreed that we'll take on Caran as our daughter, if she's willing.

Yes, we want Thinlomien and Glirdan as twins and Caranlondien as their elder sister. As Roa said I plan to spoil Thinlo, and Caranlondien as well.

[Roa_Aoife]

A strange family we have, with Sleepy being the youngest member. At least I'm older than my children.

[the phantom]

lmp, about the rules....

Night 1-
1) The Evil Wizard curses three villagers to be wolves
2) The Good Wizard scries one villager, turns them into a gifted of his/her choice

Is that right? If so, that means there won't be a Seer, Ranger, and Hunter until at least Day 3. That is, if the GW even decides to make a Seer, Ranger, and Hunter, because the rules say-
If the GW finds an innocent, the GW has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being Seer, Ranger, and Hunter.
The way that reads, it looks like the GW never has to make a Seer, Ranger, and Hunter. He could make everyone he scries a Seer if he chooses. And then the rules say-
If the gifted is de-gifted by the EW's curse, the GW may assign that gift to another. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent.
In other words, it is impossible to get rid of a gift while the GW is alive. Let's say on the first four nights the GW makes four Seers, and on day four one of the Seers is lynched. At that point, the GW will, as the rules say, "assign" that seer gift to another villager, and then that night the GW will scry yet another villager and make them a Seer.

So even if a Seer is killed every night and a Seer is lynched every day, the number of Seers will continue to grow, because the GW is allowed to assign any dead gifted's gift to another villager independent of his nightly scrying.

Is this what you had in mind, lmp, or are you going to rewrite the rules to keep this from happening?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I wonder if dancing spawn would accept my proposal. ;)

I'll be on the reserve list, vzv. I still have time considerations to think of. Although I do want to join.
Lmp, if Nilp joins, we can be a husband and wife if you want to get rid of some eligible young maidens. :D

I'm quite tempted to play, but I must force myself not to. Aww...

phantom, I think lmp said that there cannot be multiple Seers at the same time.

[the phantom]

phantom, I think lmp said that there cannot be multiple Seers at the same time.
How about Rangers and Hunters?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

How about Rangers and Hunters?
No, as far as I know. There was some discussion about it on last page.

[Caranlondien]

We also agreed that we'll take on Caran as our daughter, if she's willing.
Oh, awesome! What a merry family we shall be...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm sitting here snickering to myself. This game is going to be wonderful! :D

[Cailín]

Am I going to have relatives at all or will I merely be an old, lonely pathetic woman getting her sole enjoyment out of the love affairs of the young ones?

Either way works for me, really, though the first one might be better for my sanity. Heeh... any husbands interested in having me for a slightly psychotic and interfering mother-in-law? :p

Much looking forward to the game, by the way, even though I am slightly dazzled by the rules.

[The Saucepan Man]

I am intrigued by this ... but hesitant to enter. Not least because, with the number (and quality) of players, it will be a nightmare just to keep up with, let alone have any time to post anything vaguely constructive.

I am also hesitant because I tend to like to know which side I am on and stick to it. The Wizards aside, many of the players in this game will be changing sides with alarming regularity. For those who are not Wizards, is there to be any measure of success? Is it the "side" that one ends up on at the end? If so, then I fear that there may be less of an incentive to put in an effort, in the first few days at least. Of course, there is the pure joy of playing, but I tend to be rather competitive and therefore more incentivised if I know with certainty which side I am batting for.

Perhaps I should put in for a Wizard role. Or perhaps not ... ;)

[the phantom]

Oh, please play Sauce.
it will be a nightmare just to keep up with, let alone have any time to post anything vaguely constructive
It will be that way for nearly everyone, which means there is no pressure to give a good performance. It will be completely wild, and everyone knows it- much different than a standard game. Once the wizards are killed, however, the game will suddenly be in familiar territory.
many of the players in this game will be changing sides with alarming regularity
Yes, doesn't that sound like fun? Personally, I'm hoping to be werewolved by the EW, uncursed by the GW, gifted by the GW, de-gifted by the EW, and ultimately made into something else before the wizards die. :D
Of course, there is the pure joy of playing
That's why I'm playing.
but I tend to be rather competitive and therefore more incentivised if I know with certainty which side I am batting for
Well, you could simply decide before the game starts that you are for the village and do what you can to help them, no matter what happens to you (until the wizards die, and the game resumes normal WW dynamics).

Or you could decide that your purpose is to discover who the wizards are and try and lynch them each day in an effort to reveal them.

Or select one individual and tie yourself to them and their cause, whatever it may be.

In other words, just invent some sort of sensible cause for yourself, and stick with it until the wizards are dead.

Play, Sauce, come on... you know you want to. ;)

[Roa_Aoife]

Something that's recently occured to me- if the Evil wizard overrules the nightly kill, do the wolves get to pick another kill?

[Celuien]

I'll second the phantom.

Yes! Please do play, Sauce!

[mormegil]

LMP, to offset the EW first night ability do you plan on allowing the GW to scry more than one? Otherwise it might be a bit slanted.

[Nogrod]

I promised to make a few comments, but many of them have been voiced here alredy... Let's see, if there is something in my list that would call for further attention, besides the ones that have been voiced already by others.

- Roa's point about EW denying the nightly kill - so no-one dead? I guess so - if the EW is the target, but in other cases? As the wolfs can't PM - so they can't discuss eg. give arguments about the kill, it might come to an undecided (due to the timezones etc.). Would that also mean a "no kill" -night, or has the sub-mod a right to decide in that kind of event?

- I see you have done lots of work with this (and that's just one reason, why I love to join this), but as you have been making these "dry rounds", have you taken note of the different "statuses" between the players joining in (the line-up seems great, but there are differences, even among the great -as goes with how they are thought of by others)? So some people might be both "more wanted" and "more suspicious" - and some might go through quite a personality-change-distress with this one (referring to Spm's troubles here too)? I duly see, that a "good" evil wizard would not go appointing only the "top-three", but anyhow, this might be a problem - comparing to the dry-runs?

- Can the EW summon a new Werebear or cobbler, if the one summoned earlier, dies?

- Has the Wizard a right to discuss anything s/he wants with her/his chosen ones in PM?

But overall, the game seems unbalanced (sorry my bad English: I want to say, not level, but then giving different possibilities to both sides), with a good twist and that seems to me fine! There seems to be different weapons on both sides: the baddies will be given both a head start and a possibility to increase their number - the goodies can trust each other, not the least via PM'ing (some of them might turn to the evil side, though...). But clearly, concerning the assets in cases of good turning evil vs. evil turning good seem to favour the goodies - because of the trust-factor...? I don't know, but am more than ready & willing to give this a try...

Great game you are planning Lmp!

[mormegil]

Nogrod, I'm not sure about others but I agree with Phantom that the prospect of switching sides is extremely exciting to me personally. I would love to see if I could do it. Now, of course, there is no guarantee that it will happen so please don't refer to this during game time but think of how exciting it would be. Treachery can be very exciting as SpM might understand why I know but the phantom wouldn't ;)

Sorry if that's too cryptic.

[The Saucepan Man]

Good points, TP and morm. Very persuasive.

Hmmm ...

Play, Sauce, come on... you know you want to.

Yes! Please do play, Sauce!Doh! How can I resist now. :rolleyes:

OK. Much against my better (RL) judgment, I'm in. But I expect my style to be quite different in this game. Clueless as ever, but less verbosely so probably (to general relief, no doubt).

I'll have to look back over the rules in more detail and see if I have any questions.

Can I run the local tavern? A jolly barman. :D

Anyone need a husband?

Although, maybe I'd better check with Mrs Saucepan first ...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

C'mon Sauce, you know you want to... :p Ok, whine over.

Changing sides is part of what I'm looking forward to, as well...Though I know it's by no means definite. I don't come up on the radar much, just judging by past experience, so I don't expect to be switched around a lot, but it is still exciting, and I hope I get picked for something in the midst of the madness.

The fact has just now hit me: This game is going to be absoloutely insane. Which is part of why I'm so excited.

When do we start?

Edit: Cross-posted with Sauce--Yay, he's in!!

[The Saucepan Man]

C'mon Sauce, you know you want to...Alright, I'm in already. ;)

OK. I do have a question. If a Gifted or Werewolf loses their Gift during the Night as a result of a Wizard's choice, does their Nightly vhoice still count. For example, if the Evil Wizard picks the Seer, does the ex-Seer still get the result of their dream. Does an ex-Werewolf's kill choice still count? etc etc

[Nogrod]

Nogrod, I'm not sure about others but I agree with Phantom that the prospect of switching sides is extremely exciting to me personally. I would love to see if I could do it. Now, of course, there is no guarantee that it will happen so please don't refer to this during game time but think of how exciting it would be. Treachery can be very exciting as SpM might understand why I know but the phantom wouldn't ;)

Sorry if that's too cryptic.

Please Morm, some credit to good thinking also... we can adjust to the situation, now can't we? Sometimes it's reasonable to play with way 1, sometimes the way 2. Mentioning these tactics might be reasonable in a role / in a situation etc, and not so in another... So I can't promise you that! :rolleyes:

And truly, I see this possibility of changing identities as a great adventure and so much more fun...

Anyhow, really looking towards this one...

EDIT: Morm. That was not at all cryptic. Plain sense... (notwithstanding the last Phantom-part, but that's the bussiness of you gammers... :) )

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*cheers loudly over Saucie's entrance*

Ooh, this shall be woooonderful.

[Celuien]

Hurray for Sauce the Jolly Barman! :D

Morm makes a good point about allowing both the Good and Evil Wizards to scry more than one player on night 1. Seems like the evil side gets a head start if only the EW can multiply scry at the beginning.

What were you thinking, Elempi?

[littlemanpoet]

I said retired Mayor but a retired merchant of the sea fits nicely as well. I made a good living and can now rest and relax in peace and quiet...or can I? :rolleyes:
How about "retired mariner and currently mayor overseeing honorary functions"?

Does the "maybe widowed" apply to me or one of my daughters?Oops! Fixed. :rolleyes:

the phantom: to clarify: there may be only one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time. The clarification shall be in the updated rules post (# 2770).

Something that's recently occured to me- if the Evil wizard overrules the nightly kill, do the wolves get to pick another kill?Yes.

LMP, to offset the EW first night ability do you plan on allowing the GW to scry more than one? Otherwise it might be a bit slanted.No. The game is designed so that the good guys will feel at a disadvantage early, like the War of the Ring. Tolkienian, but still a basically level playing field.

As the wolfs can't PM - so they can't discuss eg. give arguments about the kill, it might come to an undecided (due to the timezones etc.). Would that also mean a "no kill" -night, or has the sub-mod a right to decide in that kind of event?It may be a good reason to extend Nights to 48 hours, for the sake of all that needs to get done at Night. We won't start that way, but we'll keep an eye on things. It will likely often come down to a vote by the werewolves. Boromir88 is going to be busy informing the werewolves who their nominees are, then they vote, and there will probably be run-offs and the like until a kill is determined.

I duly see, that a "good" evil wizard would not go appointing only the "top-three", but anyhow, this might be a problem - comparing to the dry-runs?I didn't account for player personality in the dry runs, as I had no idea who would join. I might have time to run a dry run with 24 for-sure's now, and see if I can predict personality choices, but that could be like trying to rewrite the Lord of the Rings by replacing all the main characters with Barrowdowners! :eek: We'll probably just see how this goes.

No werebears or cobblers in this game; however, if there were, the evil wizard could curse new ones if old ones were lynched.

The wizards may discuss whatever they want with gifteds and werewolves. Such discussions would be had knowing full well that gifteds could end up werewolves, and werewolves could end up gifted.

One thing favoring the good team, thus offsetting the early advantage of the evil team, is that the good wizard really has no reason to hide. It's like having an invincible shirriff. The evil wizard might feel desperate enough and be unwise enough to call the good wizard out to battle as soon as the good wizard declares, but that's only three or four werewolves against a village of at least 20 innocents; the evil wizard would be foolish to call out the good wizard until as late as possible.

When do we start?When Diamond's WWJ game is done, and we have 30 players (minimum), and the two wizards have been picked and are ready.

OK. I do have a question. If a Gifted or Werewolf loses their Gift during the Night as a result of a Wizard's choice, does their Nightly vhoice still count. For example, if the Evil Wizard picks the Seer, does the ex-Seer still get the result of their dream. Does an ex-Werewolf's kill choice still count?Good question. The wizards' actions will always be considered to be the first actions of the Night. Therefore, using your example above, the seer may not dream that Night. The kill is the last thing to be decided each Night, and therefore any uncursed werewolf is by that time a "mere" ordo.

Update rules and sign up (http://www.forums.barrowdowns.com./showpost.php?p=463522&postcount=2770)

[littlemanpoet]

Hurray for Sauce the Jolly Barman! :D

Morm makes a good point about allowing both the Good and Evil Wizards to scry more than one player on night 1. Seems like the evil side gets a head start if only the EW can multiply scry at the beginning.

What were you thinking, Elempi?That I didn't want this game to be over after only one Day. Just imagine if there was only one evil wizard and one werewolf on Day 1, and the good wizard had successfully scried the evil wizard on Night 1, and the villagers lynched the only werewolf on Day 1? Not a fun game. So I increased the number of werewolves to 3 right away, and decided that I liked the early advantage given to the evil team. That's what I was thinking. ;)

[Celuien]

That I didn't want this game to be over after only one Day. Just imagine if there was only one evil wizard and one werewolf on Day 1, and the good wizard had successfully scried the evil wizard on Night 1, and the villagers lynched the only werewolf on Day 1? Not a fun game. So I increased the number of werewolves to 3 right away, and decided that I liked the early advantage given to the evil team. That's what I was thinking. ;)

I see. :D

(BTW, that wasn't intended as a 'whatever could you have been thinking' comment. I was just wondering what your thoughts were. Knowing about all those dry runs, far be it from me to suggest that there was anything that missed your attention. :))

[littlemanpoet]

far be it from me to suggest that there was anything that missed your attention.Hah! I would be surprised if something didn't. :p

[mormegil]

My vote is not to have 48 hour nights. This game will go on forever if we do that.

[Kuruharan]

My vote is not to have 48 hour nights. This game will go on forever if we do that.

You do have a very good point. However, I have to put the other side here.

One of the times I was a wolf we were dealing with that irritating and bothersome Atlantic Ocean in trying to make decisions. It made it rather awkward even in that rather straightforward situation. With all the potential for argument and general mess here...I'm not sure that extra time is really a bad thing here.

Don't forget, more people are going to be getting the chop more rapidly here.

[Celuien]

Hah! I would be surprised if something didn't. :p
Well, I'm still in awe of the complexity of the whole process that went into planning this game.

30+ players and 48 hour nights does make for one very long game, but I'm already planning to be in the village for some time, so if lengthening the night facilitates running the game, I have no objection.

Anyone need a husband?
Maybe. ;)

[Valier]

Any Idea as to what time day and night will begin? Timezones and all....:rolleyes:

[littlemanpoet]

Any Idea as to what time day and night will begin? Timezones and all....:rolleyes:
I was thinking 6 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time is the least INconvenient for the most players. ..... a little rough on mountain and pacific, but quite manageable for Brits; for Philippinos however, :rolleyes: Day and Night would end at, what, 6 in the morning? blah. Is there a better solution?

[the phantom]

the phantom: to clarify: there may be only one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time. The clarification shall be in the updated rules post
Understood, sir.
One thing favoring the good team, thus offsetting the early advantage of the evil team, is that the good wizard really has no reason to hide. It's like having an invincible shirriff. The evil wizard might feel desperate enough and be unwise enough to call the good wizard out to battle as soon as the good wizard declares, but that's only three or four werewolves against a village of at least 20 innocents; the evil wizard would be foolish to call out the good wizard until as late as possible.
Good point, though if the GW tells everyone who he is, the EW can then terminate him at the time of his choosing, if some sort of situation arises where it would be to his advantage to kill the GW.

For instance, if for some reason the identity of the seer is known, that would be a good time for the EW to kill the GW and then allow his wolves to kill the seer that night, and with the GW gone the seer gift could not be passed on to another villager.

Now, about this "assigning" a gift to someone if a gifted dies, how is this done? Is the new assignment made via the nightly scry, or the instant the gifted dies, does the GW reassign the gift independent from his scrying?

There is a HUGE difference between the two and what they could lead to.

[Naria]

I guess I will be a servant who empties and cleans chamber pots.

Yeah, yeah....ewwww, but hey, someones gotta do it :D . I would most likely be pretty single because of it too. My head wouldn't always be in the pots, I would always be keeping an eye out for a hubby ;)!

Lmp, if you have too many single people I can always change my status.

[Lhunardawen]

Hey, how come no one wants to be my hubby? We can adopt one or so of those eligible maidens if it's my childlessness that's bothering you... :D


EDIT: Elempi, don't worry so much about us. We're used to being in this weird time zone so any time will do for us. Maybe.

[Thinlómien]

Though no one asked me anything :p, I agree to be Sleepy's and Roa's child. It's good to have nice parents, even once. ;)

Great, I have a brother and a sister to tease. Though, I have thought my character to be pretty young (so that she can be cute and lovely though se steals candy :p) and Glirdan's character with all his love-issues gives me an idea of an older child... So I think I need a word from Glirdy about his character's approximate age so that we can check if we can be twins.

Beware, village, here comes a spoiled (thanks, Sleepy-daddy) little girl!

I'm not entirely clear about the rules, but maybe reading them through carefully would help. I promise to take time and study them properly before the game...

[Thinlómien]

And one more point before I forget it: if I'm playing a child I insist you all call me Lommy during the game, regardless which nickname you prefer using for me.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I was thinking 6 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time is the least INconvenient for the most players. ..... a little rough on mountain and pacific, but quite manageable for Brits; for Philippinos however, :rolleyes: Day and Night would end at, what, 6 in the morning? blah. Is there a better solution?

Six PM is ok for me, but you'll have to expect some pretty early votes from me, since I wouldn't be able to arrive until 6 on two days a week. This doesn't cause a problem if the day's just starting, but when it ends, I may have to vote early. So just a heads-up in advance--early votes are not that way by choice, but by necessity, at least from me.

[Glirdan]

this actually may work out for me....but I don't know how often I'd be able to vote....and post for that matter.....soo....umm...I'm gonna have to say --6pm

[the phantom]

I was thinking 6 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time is the least INconvenient for the most players. ..... a little rough on mountain and pacific, but quite manageable for Brits; for Philippinos however, Day and Night would end at, what, 6 in the morning? blah. Is there a better solution?
I'd much rather have the time moved back a bit, to 5 or better yet 4 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

Of course, my ideal preference would be about 1 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

[Oddwen]

Will you have retractable votes? :p

And do the Werewolves know who the EW is?

And if no-one wants to 'dopt me, I'll be a filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens & other fowl and keeps them locked up in boxes. Or whatever, at LMP's discretion.

[The Saucepan Man]

Maybe. ;) What? You want me to get down on one knee ... :rolleyes: ;)

[Lalaith]

Well, as I am very frivolous, perhaps Oddwen could belong to me, either as daughter or niece, hence her feral, urchin-like state.

[the phantom]

And do the Werewolves know who the EW is?
The EW can tell them who he/she is.

Not that the wolves can believe what the EW says- it could be a lie.
What? You want me to get down on one knee... :rolleyes: ;)
Yes, she does. You know how those women are. The bigger cliff we throw ourselves off of, the more they like it. She wants you to make a big proposal, and then she'll dilly-dally around and make you sweat before she finally says yes. It's a typical ploy.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yes, she does. You know how those women are. The bigger cliff we throw ourselves off of, the more they like it. :D
So true. Throw yourself off of the Grand Canyon, love, and I might change my mind about being a widow. Wait... no, I'd still be a widow. ;)

[Thinlómien]

6 PM... It's perfect for me! I strongly second it.

A question: When a person dies, will we get to know also his/her previous roles?
I assume we don't, but I think this needs to be cleared.

[the phantom]

A question: When a person dies, will we get to know also his/her previous roles?
I assume we don't, but I think this needs to be cleared.
I wouldn't think so. Whoever is elected to be lynched on a given day should have the ability to lie to us about their previous roles.
Throw yourself off of the Grand Canyon, love, and I might change my mind about being a widow.
Much as I'd love to (and I know you'd love to), Sauce would quit the game if we became a married couple. As a matter of fact, anyone who played in or read WW II would probably quit.

[Firefoot]

Any time between about 5 and 11 pm EST works brilliantly for me.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As a matter of fact, anyone who played in or read WW II would probably quit.
Oh, the memories.

All times are equally convenient (or inconvenient) for me. Whatever works for the most will do for me.

[Diamond18]

Well as I went over in the TiGJ thread, my schedule is such that 10 PM (or 8 AM which I don't care for) is the only deadline that works for me every day of the week. So, I have no input. Whatever deadline you decide on I will have to make due with. The moderator is the only person who really HAS to be present at the exact hour of the deadline anyway. The rest of us will just have to get our work in early if necessary. Trust me, moderating is hell enough without having to worry about getting on a computer at an awkward time.

[Celuien]

What? You want me to get down on one knee ... :rolleyes: ;)
Certainly. The phantom speaks the truth.

But if you'd prefer, I'll go first.

Oh, Jolly Barkeeper, long have I admired you standing in your tavern from afar and close by in my adjoining Healing and Cupping establishment. What say you to an alliance betwixt us? You supply the ale, and I'll supply the easing of headaches that follow the next day. :D

Right. The serious business of deadlines:

6 PM EDT works for me, though it may be cutting things a bit close. I'm changing hospitals again next week and am back to a one hour commute. I'd prefer going a little later (7-8 PM), but don't object to 6 if that's best for everyone.

[Eonwe]

Any room left? With finals ending, I thinks it time I tried my hand at another game!

[Alcarillo]

6 pm is okay, but cutting it a little close. Any chance it could be moved ahead a bit? Pleeease? Just half an hour?

[Valier]

Does anyone know what time that would be for Central Standard Time?:confused:

[Sleepy Ranger]

Does anyone know what time that would be for Central Standard Time?:confused:

and GMT?

[Roa_Aoife]

5 PM CST, and 10 PM GMT, I do believe.

[Valier]

Thanks a million Roa!:D

[Kath]

10PM (GMT) would be fine with me.

[Nogrod]

10PM (GMT) would be fine with me.

With me too. Just perfect.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

With me too. Just perfect.Ditto. (Surprisingly... ;) )

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'd like it to be a little later (11:00 PM GMT is ideal) but if it doesn't work well for everyone else, I can deal with it. (Early votes... :p )

[Sleepy Ranger]

Personally, I'd prefer the deadline to be around an hour or two earlier though I have nothing against the current time. A few hours earlier would be perfect for me though.

[Kath]

Please not much earlier. The earlier it goes the worse it is for me.

[Firefoot]

I agree with Kath. If you have to vote an hour or two early, that is not bad. That hardly even deserves to be called voting early. The problem that happens if you move it much earlier is that then some of us will be voting about six or seven hours early. That just plain stinks.

[mormegil]

I tend to agree with Diamond, whatever is best for LMP and the rest of us will accomodate the best we can.

[Caranlondien]

I tend to agree with Diamond, whatever is best for LMP and the rest of us will accomodate the best we can.
I second the motion (although it's already been seconded...)

[Roa_Aoife]

I third it, or fourth it, or whatever. We'll make it work.

[Gurthang]

Well, first off, about times(if I play):

Any work for me. I'm pretty sure that I won't hesitate to stay up late to vote if necessary (although, I shouldn't do that frequently). And I'm not worried about voting early.

Next, I've not yet given any occupation or relationship(again, if I play):

I think I'll be a stable-hand at our jolly Saucepan Barman's establishment. As to my single/someone's child/married status and age, I'll leave that up entirely to LMP.

I have noticed that no one is asking about normal rules, probably because we are so intrigued with the new ones. So, here are a couple. First, double lynches? I'm assuming no, but I want to be sure. Next, is there any penalty for not voting/not posting? Like instant termination... or even instantly 'switching' sides. ;)


Oh, and as to whether or not I will actually be playing... my last final is on Wednesday, May 10. If the game starts after that, then I'm in. If it starts before... well, I'm still undecided about that.

[Nogrod]

NB. This is an idea, that should be discussed in the TiGJ -thread - and I don't want to hassle here. But I just thought, that this might go unnoticed by some people, if it were confined only to the junior-thread. So please read this and comment - on the junior thread...

I came up with an idea last week, that I have now talked with Lommy, and she was all for it. Now I would like to hear from you others.

There seems to be two problems in a WW-game.
1) The "illustrious players" are more likely to die very soon if they are ordos (wolf-kill) or wolves (lynch).
2) One can't change her/his way of playing, as it is deemed highly suspicious by others (lynch).

So I was just thinking, whether we could have a game with totally unknown identities? It could be the game moderated by myself & Lommy in WWJ, soon.

Everyone wishing to join the game would then have to log in as a newbie (with a new name and avvie). NB. This new character should only be used for the WW-game! One should not post anything on other threads with this new identity - as not to leave tracks around. So everyone could enlist to the game with this new identity - and then PM me their real identities, on their real log-ins - just to be sure... So just telling me, who they are going to be.

We could then entwine this identity stuff (well, it's the "Island of philosophical Penguins" -game and the questions of identity are philosophical, if there are ones!) into the overall narration of the game - thereby revealing all the killed with their real identities one by one. And in the end, we would of course reveal the remaining characters as well (You have to be able to get the rep's into a right address, now don't you? )

But as I said, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. And especially the point of the overall mod of the Mirth - or the one handling identities / log-ins. So is it troublesome to erase or delete persons from the Downs in general? I could send a list of these "only for the game characters" to someone in charge of the members, to be deleted after the game.

With this, we might have a totally new gaming experience (we could not trust or suspect someone by the name only, but would have to concentrate on the actual posts) and everyone would be free to try a different approach to the gaming - and we would have all the excitement in wondering, who is who...

This could bite in both directions: it would be harder for the wolves to decide their pray - and it would be harder for the villagers to analyze the posts by their writer.

Sounds challenging, and exciting to me. How about you?

[the phantom]

I really like it, Nogrod.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I said it via PM, I'll say it here. Fantastic idea!

[Nogrod]

I'm very happy about your positive reactions Phantom & Feanor, but let's swap this discussion to the WWJ -thread - as our game will be there... This thread is now kind of reserved by Lmp's game-talk - and should be so.

I've PM'd to the Barrow-Wight. Let's hear the answer from there...

[Eonwe]

Why thank you good sir! I am a hardy young woodsman. Relationship: bachelor; unattached.

[littlemanpoet]

Now, about this "assigning" a gift to someone if a gifted dies, how is this done? Is the new assignment made via the nightly scry, or the instant the gifted dies, does the GW reassign the gift independent from his scrying?.The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

Will you have retractable votes? No.And do the Werewolves know who the EW is?Only if s/he tells them.

When a person dies, will we get to know also his/her previous roles? I assume we don't, but I think this needs to be cleared.No, not until the end of the game.

First, double lynches?No.

Next, is there any penalty for not voting/not posting? Like instant termination... or even instantly 'switching' sides.Not until there are only 12 players left; at that point everyone's participation becomes essential. Before then, sheer numbers in this game make it such that not voting and not posting has its own 'organic' way of being dealt with (early in the game, if you take my meaning).

Just so it's clear: Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other. This has been added to the rules & sign up post (http://www.forums.barrowdowns.com./showpost.php?p=463522&postcount=2770).

[the phantom]

Now, about this "assigning" a gift to someone if a gifted dies, how is this done? Is the new assignment made via the nightly scry, or the instant the gifted dies, does the GW reassign the gift independent from his scrying?.
The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.
All right, thanks for clearing that up. If assignments can only be made via the nightly scry, then the idea of the Good Wizard simply declaring himself could be extremely costly to the forces of good.

For instance, let's say that on a given day there are twelve villagers, four wolves, three gifteds, and two wizards. The EW would probably not want to call the GW out to battle. But during the night, the EW curses the Ranger and degifts him and the wolves slay the seer. Suddenly, the village contains twelve villagers, four wolves, one single gifted, and two wizards. This would be an attractive time for the EW to challenge the GW if the GW has gone ahead and declared himself, where as if the GW was still unknown, the EW couldn't take instant advantage of the situation and the following night the GW could reassign the seer role, putting the village back on good footing.

[Roa_Aoife]

For instance, let's say that on a given day there are twelve villagers, four wolves, three gifteds, and two wizards. The EW would probably not want to call the GW out to battle. But during the night, the EW curses the Ranger and degifts him and the wolves slay the seer.

That would very fortunate for the EW and the wolves, considering the the GW doesn't necessarily have to reveal the gifted.

[Firefoot]

Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other. So I take it that if the village tries to lynch one of them, their identity will pretty much be revealed.

[the phantom]

That would very fortunate for the EW and the wolves
Yes, yes, my scenario is not likely, but insane turns of events happen in these games, and if the GW reveals himself immediately he has basically ensured a good-guy loss should anything unlucky happen, as it would give the EW the power to end the wizard phase on his terms.

I don't think the wizards should give that power away unless a particular situation calls for it.

[Gurthang]

What would happen, pray tell, in the very unlikely scenario that we end up with just the two wizards left?

[littlemanpoet]

So I take it that if the village tries to lynch one of them, their identity will pretty much be revealed.
Yes.

Yes, yes, my scenario is not likely, but insane turns of events happen in these games, and if the GW reveals himself immediately he has basically ensured a good-guy loss should anything unlucky happen, as it would give the EW the power to end the wizard phase on his terms.Except that the evil wizard's primary concern will almost always be to have as many werewolves around as possible, so if he can avoid being killed, it's still possibly to his advantage to get another werewolf even if the good wizard can get another gifted, because the werewolves are assured of a kill whereas the seer is not assured of discovering a werewolf.

It is indeed debatable whether the good wizard would want to reveal. I can see positives and negatives going in both directions with it. It'll be interesting to see how it falls out in this game.

Oh ..... We'll settle on 6 pm EDT. (4 CST, 5 CDT, 10 GMT ... & probably 6am Philipino time... ?)

[the phantom]

It is indeed debatable whether the good wizard would want to reveal. I can see positives and negatives going in both directions with it. It'll be interesting to see how it falls out in this game.
the phantom's predictions for the game....

1) The Good Wizard will drop a couple hints so small that no one will notice on day three, and then on day four of the game he/she will outright declare. At the end of the game when all scries, roles, dreams and such are revealed, it will be seen that the GW made a wise decision in the time and manner of his/her disclosure.

2) Most will see the wizard duel coming the day before it happens, even if both the wizards are not known.

3) A werewolf-uncursing/gifted-ungifting will occur three times.

4) The wolves will kill a gifted once before the wizards die.

5) Someone who is unwolfed will be turned right back the next night.

6) If there is more than one seer in the course of the game, both will dream of me.

7) Neither wizard will scry/curse me at any point, believing that I am too obvious.

8) At least one wolf will put forth a strong opinion about me every night- either "kill him please" or "leave him alive, he's unwittingly helping us".

9) The majority of the EW's lies to his/her wolves will have the desired result, but one lie in particular will backfire badly due to unforseen circumstances.

10) For the first time ever, Sauce and I will not suspect each other in the least.

11) The game will be very fun.

[Lhunardawen]

Wrong thread, phantom. :p

Anyways, so that's 6 AM our time? Hehe. Expect early votes. But you already knew that.

By the way, if anyone's interested, I still don't have a husband. Currently accepting applications. :cool:

[Kath]

Here Lhuna, look at Eonwe:

Why thank you good sir! I am a hardy young woodsman. Relationship: bachelor; unattached.
Unattached bachelor - get in there!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

She said yes! She said yes--wait a minute . . .

dancing spawn of ungoliant Felagund is too long, isn't it? :p

I'll join with a question mark on my head, though it will all depend on my status during the start of the game.

I shall be an ex-prophet, recently stripped of his gifts after an incident involving honey and crickets.

[Lhunardawen]

I was under the impression he would want to remain unattached...

[Eonwe]

Not necessarily, ma'am. A woodsman needs a good companion to help run the homestead. It gets mighty lonely.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh, Jolly Barkeeper, long have I admired you standing in your tavern from afar and close by in my adjoining Healing and Cupping establishment. What say you to an alliance betwixt us? You supply the ale, and I'll supply the easing of headaches that follow the next day.Aw shucks! I am powerless to resist your wiles, lady healer. I now pronounce us man and wife. And together we shall run the House of Healing and Drinking ... :D

For the first time ever, Sauce and I will not suspect each other in the least.C'mon, TP. Some of your predictions are unlikely ones - but that's just outlandish! I predict that I shall, at least once during the game, vote for you as an Ordo, scry you as the Seer, attempt to kill you as a Wolf, protect you as the Ranger and hunt you as the Hunter (not necessarily in that order). ;)

Moving on to game rules and the like ...

Am I right that 6pm EDT is 10pm GMT? Although I would prefer a slightly later deadline, I can certainly live with that.

No double-lynches looks to be a good idea for a game like this. But what is the rule for determining who is lynched in the event of a tie?

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day.Can the Werewolves pass information to the Evil Wizard? If so, doesn't this make it rather likely that the Evil Wizard will learn the identity of the Good Wizard simply by de-gifting and then Wolfing a Gifted? I suppose the likelihood is that a Villager will be targeted by both the GW and the EW the Night after being de-Gifted and it's up to the GW whether to allow them to become a Werewolf or to force them instead to be killed. But if the Wolves are allowed to pass information to the EW, this surely make it almost inevitable that the GW will choose death for the poor villager.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gifteds remain unaware of the identity of the GW, but are allowed to pass information (via the sub-mod) to him or her?

[Roa_Aoife]

In the event that both the EW and GW pick the same villager to scry or turn, they discover each other's identity from the struggle. And the GW doesn't necessarily have to reveal themselves to the gifted, as far as I understand.

[Roa_Aoife]

Oh, if we're making predictions- I predict that on Day 1 Nogrod will come up with a completely reckless and foolhardy plan involving the Seer, which everyone will disagree with, but end up following anyways, that will ultimately save the village. :p

And there will be a lot of double deaths at night when the Hunter role has to be repeatedly reassigned as they take out seer after seer.

[Diamond18]

Well, I predict a riot.

I also predict that I will be on the good side for as long as I live, never getting a chance to be evil, but everyone will be highly suspicious of my anyway and I will be nearly lynched on one of the first three days. :p

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

As long as we're making predictions, I predict chaos. Beautiful, inspired chaos, but chaos nonetheless. I wouldn't want to miss a minute.

[Kuruharan]

One of the advantages of the Good Wizard is tactical flexibility. The Good Wizard has more courses of action available. Obviously, they are not all always beneficial...but they are there. The Good Wizard has the freedom to do practically anything.

The Evil Wizard is more restricted, especially in the area of communication. I think effective communication is going to be one of the more difficult challenges for the Evil Wizard as his/her/its communication is going to have to flow through LMP & Boro88. The Good Wizard can dispense with that as soon as he/she/it feels like it...although this is clearly something of an irreversible decision as soon as it is made. However, at a crisis moment in the game the ability of the Good Wizard to speak directly to his/her/its minions could turn the game in his/her/its favor.

I hope I was able to clear up some concerns in this area.

[Celuien]

Aw shucks! I am powerless to resist your wiles, lady healer. I now pronounce us man and wife. And together we shall run the House of Healing and Drinking ... :D
Oh, lovely! What a perfect pair we'll make, I'm sure.

Predictions: Despite the constant shifting alliances in this village, I'll still remain an ordo, and then die at the hands of a wolvish plot.

[littlemanpoet]

Am I right that 6pm EDT is 10pm GMT? Although I would prefer a slightly later deadline, I can certainly live with that.Yes. It seems to work the least worst for the most players.

what is the rule for determining who is lynched in the event of a tie?First to reach that highest number of votes, is lynched.

Can the Werewolves pass information to the Evil Wizard?Yes.

If so, doesn't this make it rather likely that the Evil Wizard will learn the identity of the Good Wizard simply by de-gifting and then Wolfing a Gifted?That's one strategy that the evil wizard can try to use, and a reason why the good wizard may try to hide his/her identity from the gifteds.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gifteds remain unaware of the identity of the GW, but are allowed to pass information (via the sub-mod) to him or her?That's up to the good wizard, who is not required to reveal his/her identity to anyone.

Hee hee! :D I had thought that I might have to force you guys into marriages, but one never has to push nature, which works quite well by itself. You guys are hooking up like birds in spring! :D Just wait till the deaths start and these relational attachments start, well, you know....

[the phantom]

I predict that I shall, at least once during the game, vote for you as an Ordo, scry you as the Seer, attempt to kill you as a Wolf, protect you as the Ranger and hunt you as the Hunter (not necessarily in that order). ;)
Ha ha!

Well, if you and I both stay alive long enough for all that to happen, I'll be happy.
You guys are hooking up like birds in spring!
Speaking of which, I had better single out a maiden or two to have a bit of fun with. Hmm... let's see.... Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit. ;)

[Diamond18]

Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit.

*Diamond slaps battledore against the palm of her hand and raises an eyebrow* I've got my eye on you.

As to the rules, I'm completely flummoxed at this point, but once I can devote more time to reading them over, I'm sure I'll be... even more flummoxed. :rolleyes: I have a feeling the mods are going to be really earning their keep during this game. ;)

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Ha ha!

Well, if you and I both stay alive long enough for all that to happen, I'll be happy.

Speaking of which, I had better single out a maiden or two to have a bit of fun with. Hmm... let's see.... Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit. ;)

Hahaha *prepares* :D


*Diamond slaps battledore against the palm of her hand and raises an eyebrow* I've got my eye on you.

Aww, c'mon, mum...It's just a bit of fun! *ducks battledore*

To Phantom: you just have to watch out for my mum...She's a bit... *whispers* crazy.

*Azaelia scoots before she can be hit with a battledore, and advises Phantom to do the same*

Oh dear, I'm already having too much fun with this. Can't wait!

[Lhunardawen]

Not necessarily, ma'am. A woodsman needs a good companion to help run the homestead. It gets mighty lonely.
A woodsman and a jeweler? How does that sound?

[Nogrod]

Lmp

Diamond's game will end in two gamedays time (if there are no nightly saves), and is anyhow over after the weekend.

So when do you plan to start this one?

[littlemanpoet]

So when do you plan to start this one?When I have 30 players, have chosen the two wizards, and they are ready to begin..... and I have taken a last careful look at everything and my 2 sub-mods have given the "ready" sign. So.... patience, please; more details later.

[Lalaith]

Ok, I've got some rule-based questions ~

There are three wolves on the first night. It seems unlikely that two of the three will pick the same kill, with 27 players to choose from. So if there is no clear "winner" for a kill, what happens? Does the EW choose which one to go for?

If wolves happen to pick the EW or a wolf, they will be told to pick another kill, is that right? In which case, presumably, ALL wolves will be told to pick another kill, not just the "bad choosers", or they will know that their choice was either the EW or another wolf...


If the wolves win, does the EW also win even if he is dead? If the villagers win, does the same happen for the GW? (Otherwise the wizards would never want to duel, I would suppose)

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't know about your first two questions, but as for the last one- Werewolf is a team game, after all. In an ordinary village, even if only one wolf comes out alive at the end, all the wolves are considered the winners. I imagine it's the same here. The EW and the wolves are a team. If one player wins, the whole team wins. Likewise for the GW and the villagers.

[Lalaith]

Of course...it's just that LMP said that if both wizards die the game reverts to "classic" so I wondered if that discounts the wizards.

Oh and is it just me or is this EW acronym making you think of peeved Valley Girls?

[littlemanpoet]

Ok, I've got some rule-based questions ~

There are three wolves on the first night. It seems unlikely that two of the three will pick the same kill, with 27 players to choose from. So if there is no clear "winner" for a kill, what happens? Does the EW choose which one to go for?First, the werewolves place their individual nominees before the EW & Evil team sub-mod. The sub-mod informs the werewolves of all nominees. The werewolves then pick from amongst the nominees until there is a consensus for the Night as to whom to kill. If there is not unanimity, the kill will be based on majority votes. If no majority has been established by the end of the Night, the EW will choose from among the nominees. The EW reserves the right to overrule all of the nominees since the EW has a better view to overall strategy than the werewolves, and must inform the E-team sub-mod when s/he does so, and the sob-mod will inform the werewolves and give a summary of the EW's reason(s) for the overrule, if the EW wants to give one.

If wolves happen to pick the EW or a wolf, they will be told to pick another kill, is that right? In which case, presumably, ALL wolves will be told to pick another kill, not just the "bad choosers", or they will know that their choice was either the EW or another wolf...Right.


If the wolves win, does the EW also win even if he is dead? If the villagers win, does the same happen for the GW? (Otherwise the wizards would never want to duel, I would suppose)But of course they're considered winners if their side wins! :rolleyes: ;)

[Lalaith]

Thank you sir Mod.

*bows*

Oh, one other thing. Will it be possible for villagers and/or wolves to know how many wolves are operating at any one time?

[littlemanpoet]

Thank you sir Mod.

*bows*

Oh, one other thing. Will it be possible for villagers and/or wolves to know how many wolves are operating at any one time?A most excellent question, my preciousssss..... and the answer is that it can only be determined by how many kills there are, and by a declaration of a win in either direction. At least, that's how I'd LIKE to run it. But I'm wondering if that would be too much stress on the villagers?..... hmmmmm..... thoughts, anyone?

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, the way it's set up now, only the GW and EW would know how many whatsits are running around. Naturally, if the GW declared, he/she/it could keep the villagers up to date. However, even he might be a little confused, depending on how things go. I think it might be an inevitability that the GW will come out, but it's not certain. So really, it's a strategy thing, and should be left as is.

Which gets me to wonder- the wizards will be notified when one of their own is removed from the team via scrying or cursing, correct?

[Lalaith]

I'm wondering whether, given the inevitable general anarchy, it might not be an idea to give some kind of 'state of play' summing up by the UberMod at the end of each Day/Night.
This could be number of wolves and/or number of gifted living, whatever the UberMod sees fit, but it might be a much-needed Voice of Reason.

[littlemanpoet]

Which gets me to wonder- the wizards will be notified when one of their own is removed from the team via scrying or cursing, correct?Yes.

After further thought, I will do as has been done by every moderator that I'm aware of, and give End of Day and Night tallies, including number of werewolves, number of gifteds (not which ones), who died, and who is left.

[Lalaith]

Will you give the roles of who died, ie will we know it was a Seer, a Ranger, an ord etc?

[littlemanpoet]

Will you give the roles of who died, ie will we know it was a Seer, a Ranger, an ord etc?
Yes. The villagers need to have a healthy sense of paranoia, and knowing they've lost a seer, ranger, or what have you, can only aid and abet such paranoia. :cool:

[Thinlómien]

If a wizard is near to get lynched, does the another wizard have to challenge him/her?

[littlemanpoet]

If a wizard is near to get lynched, does the another wizard have to challenge him/her?
No.

The evil wizard will probably not want to challenge the good wizard until and unless the situation is in the evil wizard's advantage. The good wizard most likely wants to stop the evil wizard from creating more werewolves, and from his/her perspective (most likely) the sooner the better.

[Anguirel]

An update of upcoming mods:

Kath
Cailin
Gurthang
Sleepy

and

Anguirel, for I'm hoping to get my Heroes sequel in at last.

Featuring

-a whole new towerful of hapless werewolves!
-Thuringwethil, the charming and gorgeous messenger of Sauron!
-Carcharoth the Red Maw, bigger and badder than ever!
-The Lord of Werewolves, Gorthaur, the Abhorred, Wolf-Sauron!
-Three Gallant Heroes!
-Celegorm the Fair!
-A Redeemable Werewolf!
-And not that much more!

[JennyHallu]

Hey, Ang...don't forget you have a redeemed werewolf already!

[Formendacil]

Featuring

-a whole new towerful of hapless werewolves!
-Thuringwethil, the charming and gorgeous messenger of Sauron!
-Carcharoth the Red Maw, bigger and badder than ever!
-The Lord of Werewolves, Gorthaur, the Abhorred, Wolf-Sauron!
-Three Gallant Heroes!
-Celegorm the Fair!
-A Redeemable Werewolf!
-And not that much more!

Whatever happened to Carcharoth being the lord of the new Werewolf village? If Sauron returns... then what are the odds that I get to reprise my role? And what of the return of Lady Spawnowen that you promised? I'm terribly disappointed...

[Anguirel]

The Redeemable Wolf is redeemable because it's inhabited by the Lady Spawnowen's tormented spirit.

And this time Sauron is in Wolf-Form and has different abilities...requiring a different style of play, perhaps. All will be revealed...

[Thinlómien]

I warn you already at this phase, when the roles haven't been given yet: if I'm not flip-flopping or flood-posting all the time in this game (I don't promise anything, though), it is not a reason to lynch me for being weird. I just thought I should concentrate more on ww (= think more about things). I've been a bit careless in the past. But of course time will show if I really can be more resonable... And yes, Roa, the floor to flood is yours... Maybe.

[Roa_Aoife]

Aw, and I was looking forward to the competition. Eru knows, I've yet to best Nogrod in a post count. (So help me, one day I will!)

[mormegil]

Aw, and I was looking forward to the competition. Eru knows, I've yet to best Nogrod in a post count. (So help me, one day I will!)

That is rather ambitious. I've never seen somebody post so much. He makes my post count look small by comparison. Normally I'm one of the more vocal one too.

LMP do how many players are we at currently?

[The Saucepan Man]

An update of upcoming modsI wouldn't mind modding another game when the opportunity arises.

Yes. The villagers need to have a healthy sense of paranoia, and knowing they've lost a seer, ranger, or what have you, can only aid and abet such paranoia.My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.

[Nogrod]

My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.

I agree, to a degree... :D

In a basic kind of a game, it seems to work. And I'm just wondering, whether Lommy and I should really think of sticking into some of this stuff by Diamond in our game, which will be quite basic anyhow (let's see what we come up with? :cool: ).

But a question to Lmp as well! As your games is built in one sense on families, should we have something like "families sticking together" -sort of stuff from our own initiative (which I would happily like to PM to my family-members before the roles are given - and the game starts!), or is there some additional & institutional things you have in your sleeve? F.ex. family-members can't vote for another in day1, 2, 3,...?, or something?

It would be nice to try to play the day1 once in a lifetime with serious discussion, but still hanging on to the roles -as this family-based idea could allow it?

[mormegil]

I have to say that I loved not knowing roles and hated it at the same time. I think it added a breath of fresh air and some new excitement to WW for me. I would love to see it around much more. Though I'm not sure about it during LMP's game. It may be nice to know but it may be more fun to not. What do others think?

[Celuien]

The game is so different and complex already that while not knowing is interesting, I'm nervous about adding another level of confusion to it.

Though since there's no goose-cobbler, there's less to worry about with players on the village side betraying the other villagers to the wolves.

I would prefer to have the tallies for number of wolves and gifteds because those numbers are going to shift every night, and if they don't, knowing that they didn't is sort of important for everyone to know, including any successful gifteds.

[Nogrod]

I have to say that I loved not knowing roles and hated it at the same time. I think it added a breath of fresh air and some new excitement to WW for me. I would love to see it around much more. Though I'm not sure about it during LMP's game. It may be nice to know but it may be more fun to not. What do others think?

Even I do think, that you were not addressing me in questioning "the others" (as I kind of pointed my stance in my last post already), but I would just like to add to the weight of numbers to Morm's point: in smaller or otherwise traditional games (one which me and Lommy are going to put up in the WWJ-thread quite soon), these new ideas are truly welcome. In games that anyway pose a new challenge to everyone (lmp's game), they would be less than wanted, as you would have to cope with so many new things already.

Agreeing with you Morm, I guess?

EDIT: X-posted with Celuien, and agreeing with her on everything!

[The Saucepan Man]

I would prefer to have the tallies for number of wolves and gifteds because those numbers are going to shift every night, and if they don't, knowing that they didn't is sort of important for everyone to know, including any successful gifteds.A fair point, as is that made by Morm and Noggy.

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

[Celuien]

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?
I suppose that's fair enough. We'd know about the occurrence of any shift in alliances without being given extra information about which gifteds were around.

Of course, there's still the concern of piling too many changes on at once. I defer to our esteemed Smi... I mean, Elempi, for the decision.

[littlemanpoet]

I need 2 to 4 more players before we'll get started. And more volunteers for a wizard role will be accepted. (Please PM me or you won't be considered.)

LMP do how many players are we at currently?26 for sure with 2 possibles.

Gurthang & Felagund, are you still dithering ;) or can you commit?

With those two added, I just need 2 more. I do want 30.

My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.So I noticed. I think the tallies are needed for the way this game should work. In a more basically structured game I can see doing without them.

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?Hmmmm.... Let's put this one to a vote.

Rules:

Dueling Wizards Werewolf Rules

There are two wizards, and no other gifted at the beginning of the game, which must have a minimum of 20 players, and an arbitrary maximum (first time) of 30. The two wizard roles are assigned from a list of volunteers who are willing to play the roles.

The two wizards don't know who each other are. One is evil, one is good. Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other.

Evil Wizard: each Night the evil wizard picks a villager to curse as a werewolf. The new werewolf is immediately informed and the mod requests a kill choice, which the werewolf provides by the end of the 24 hours. On the first Night of the game, the Evil Wizard chooses three werewolves; thereafter s/he chooses one per Night.

The werewolves do not know each other's identity because while they are werewolves at Night, they cannot detect the identities underlying the curses. When there are multiple werewolves, and they make differing kill choices, the person with the most werewolf "votes" is killed. If there is a tie, the sub-mod for the evil wizard PMs back to each werewolf about the others' choices, and serves as a go-between until the werewolves have come to a majority choice.

Note: Werewolves do not PM each other and therefore cannot debate with each other; thus, they are not going to find out each others' identities. If in some odd circumstance, a werewolf gets the most votes for the werewolf kill, the evil wizard has the right to overrule the choice, and the werewolves are told to make a different pick. If in some even odder circumstance, the werewolves choose the evil wizard as their kill, the evil wizard of course has the right to overrule their choice. In a 20 or more player game, if there are 4 to 6 werewolves, there are 2 kills per Night; if there are 7 or more werewolves, there are 3 kills per Night.

If the evil wizard chooses a gifted villager to curse, the gifted villager loses the gift but does not turn into a werewolf ... this time. The good wizard is informed of the loss of the gifting.

If the evil wizard picks the good wizard at Night, he is informed that he has discovered the good wizard, and has the option from then on to call out the good wizard to battle during any Day.

The evil wizard may choose to inform one or more werewolves who one or more other werewolves are; but this is a risky option and should be used with great care, considering the possible consequences.

The evil wizard is allowed to lie to his were-creatures.

Good Wizard: each Night the good wizard picks a villager to scry.

1. If the good wizard scries the evil wizard, the good wizard is informed of that, and can call out the evil wizard to battle during any Day, which results in the death of both wizards.

2. If the good wizard scries a werewolf, the werewolf is turned back into an innocent by the good wizard's power.

3. If the good wizard finds an innocent, the good wizard has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being seer, ranger, and hunter. If a gifted is de-gifted by the evil wizard's curse, the good wizard may assign that gift to another. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent. The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

NOTE: There may only be one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time.

The good wizard may choose to inform one or more gifteds who one or more of the gifteds are.

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day. They do not know who each other is unless the good wizard tells them. (why wouldn't the good wizard tell the gifteds who each other is?)

The good wizard is allowed to mis-inform and/or withhold information from his gifteds.

The evil wizard and werewolves win when the werewolves equal or exceed the number of innocents. The villagers and good wizard win when there is no evil wizard left, and no werewolves left.

There are no shirriffs, no werebears, and no cobblers.

If the good wizard and the evil wizard choose the same previously innocent villager on the same Night, the two wizards discover each other's identity by means of the contest. Since the evil wizard still wants a werewolf, the good wizard must choose whether to let the villager die as a casualty of the wrenching experience of the contest, or let the villager survive and become a werewolf..

Just to be perfectly clear: a wizard battle always results in the death of both wizards, and may only happen during the Day.

There is a vote for lynching every Day. If there is a tie vote, then the first player to have received that many votes, is lynched. If a wizard is voted to be lynched, he will be lynched but cannot die that way, and is thus forced to declare himself, and the opposing wizard can call him/her out for a wizard battle the following Day. A wizard cannot be killed by lynching; instead, nobody dies that Day.

If the evil wizard dies, the werewolves are informed of each other's identity, and revert from there on to traditional werewolf group dynamics.

Each Day and Night will be 24 hours; if such a time frame proves somehow unworkable, it may be changed (with notice of course!) during the game.

Order of Night Activities:
1. Evil wizard picks whom to curse.
2. Good wizard pickes whom to scry.
3. Affected players are informed of results of #1 & #2 (if both wizards pick same villager, this phase gets longer but is completed before the next phase begins).
4. Ranger picks whom to save.
5. Seer picks whom to dream.
6. Hunter picks whom to hunt.
7. Werewolves pick whom to kill.
Note: Steps 4 - 7 can happen simultaneously, but will be recorded by the moderator in the order as listed so as to keep the game straight.

Miscellaneous Rulings:
*There are no multiple lynchings.
*A killed or lynched persons previous roles will not be revealed until the game is over.
*Regarding player etiquette: Accusations and suspicions are what the game of werewolf is all about, and that's why we play. This sometimes includes insults which must be considered as 'all in fun' (using appropriate 'smilies' helps to show that it's all in fun); however, there are limits that must not be crossed: if your gameplaying insults are beyond the pale (you're going to have to accept the moderator's judgment on this), you will be considered to have gone overboard. Therefore, anyone going overboard will get a PM from the moderator with a warning to use better etiquette. Any player that "goes overboard" a second time, will be summarily removed from the game with no death narrative. As one of the Wise once said: "It's only a game - don't be offended, but it's only a game - don't be offensive."

Sign up

# player ~ relationship ~ occupation

1 Diamond ~ gammer married to Nogrod & mother of eligible young maidens Lhunardawen, Azaelia, & Firefoot ~ Battledore Maker with strong forearms from battledore swinging

2 Celuien ~ wife of The Saucepan Man ~ Healer and Cupper

3 Caranlondien ~ eligible young maiden, eldest daughter of Sleepy Ranger & Roa Aoife (big sister of Thin & Glir) ~ Sled-Team Driver

4 Roa Aoife ~ wife of Sleepy Ranger, and mother of Thinlomien ~ weaver

5 Nogrod ~ gaffer married to Diamond and father to eligible young maidens Lhunardawen, Azaelia, & Firefoot ~ retired jester who has many permanent bruises from battledores

6 Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant ~ eligible young maiden (or wife of Nilp if he plays) ~ Baker

7 Kath ~ eligible young maiden ~ minstrel

8 Lommy~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, younger sister of Glirdan and Caranlondien ~ little girl who steals other children's candy

9 Lhunardawen ~ wife of Eonwe (no children) & eldest daughter of Nogrod & Diamond ~ jeweler

10 Glirdan ~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, older brother of Thinlomien, younger brother of Caranlondien ~ with giant crush on Kath (occupation aplenty!)

11 Valier ~ not so eligible young maiden ~ gardener

12 Sleepy Ranger ~ married to Roa Aoife, father of Thinlomien ~ Wanderer from the days of old, now settled in the village

13 Kitanna ~ ~

14 Firefoot ~ tomboyish young maiden (engaged to stuffy, boring, rich jerk) & daughter of Nogrod and Diamond; younger sister of Azaelia ~ artist

15 Alcarillo ~ gaffer married to Cailín ~ old retired sea captain

16 Cailín ~ gammer married to Alcarillo ~ match maker

17 Oddwen ~ orphan child, in the care of Lalaith ~ aviary keeper (filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens & other fowl and keeps them locked up in boxes)

18 mormegil ~ widower ~ retired mariner and currently mayor overseeing honorary functions

19 Feanor ~ husband lost at sea, widowed and eligible (with eyes for the smith?) ~ suspicious and somewhat creepy shepherdess with a love of alliteration

20 Azaelia of Willowbottom ~ eligible young maiden & daughter to Diamond and Nogrod [open to whims of the mod] ~ (apprentice?) seamstress

21 the phantom ~ single semi-eligible young man ~ loud, unpredictable, adventurer

22 Naria ~ young eligible maiden (willing to change status) ~ servant who empties and cleans chamber pots

23 Jenny Hallu ~ ~

24 The Saucepan Man ~ husband of Celuien ~ barkeep

25 Lalaith ~ frivolous aunt and guardian of Oddwen ~

26 Eonwe ~ husband of Lhunardawen & son in law of Nogrod & Diamond ~

27 Eomer of the Rohirrim ~ ~

Gurthang? ~ ~ stable-hand (if he plays)

Nilpaurion Felagund? ~ hubby of Dancing Spawn if he plays

[Diamond18]

I'm not sure what's more complicated, the rules or the relationships. :D But boy am I looking forward to this, it's going to be one heckuva ride....

Oh where oh where are you, our 2 to 4 more players?

[Lalaith]

I would like to cast a vote for tallies with roles at time of death revealed, pretty please, Sir Elempi. This game is going to be anarchic enough as it is....I don't think I could cope if there wasn't some solid info once a day....*whimper*

[Nogrod]

I would like to cast a vote for tallies with roles at time of death revealed, pretty please, Sir Elempi. This game is going to be anarchic enough as it is....I don't think I could cope if there wasn't some solid info once a day....*whimper*

I do agree with Lalaith in here. There will be so much that is new - not to mention these family-affairs, possibly making the dAY1 at last somewhat consistent?

And anyhow: those gifts do go around all the time, so even some security would mean a lot, for all of our peace of mind. :smokin:

[the phantom]

I'm with Lalaith. You don't have to tell us when the deceased became whatever he was, or if he used to be something else, but you should at least tell us what he was at time of death.

[littlemanpoet]

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 2

SPM
Celuien

Not in favor: 3

Lalaith
Nogrod
the phantom

By the way, I'll be PMing a few players (mostly male for the sake of evenness of numbers) to try and get these recruits. If you have any ideas who else can join us, PM me.

EDIT: We have a 27th player: Eomer of the Rohirrim :) Welcome to Dueling Wizards, Eomer!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you, kind sir. :)

And I look forward to gaming with all of you. Now, to assimilate all this new info. What a perfect way to spend a few hours: reading about Werewolf! :D

[JennyHallu]

Can I be Celuien's sister and an unmarried maiden aunt type? If Celuien is ok with that?

[Diamond18]

I'm with Lal, tp, and Nog. Hiding the roles of the dead is a good way to spice up a more traditional game, but this one has already got spice in spades.

[Eonwe]

26 Eonwe ~ husband of Lhunardawen ~


Wha!?! I never agreed to this! We definitely left that one in the air. You can't just go marrying people behind their backs!

But now that you mention it, it doesn't sound like too bad of an arrangment, if you can get past the arranged part... ;) :D

I'm with Lalaith. You don't have to tell us when the deceased became whatever he was, or if he used to be something else, but you should at least tell us what he was at time of death.

I guess I'm with Lalaith too. I would be nice to know if you're making some progress.

[Celuien]

Can I be Celuien's sister and an unmarried maiden aunt type? If Celuien is ok with that?
Fine with me. :D

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm with SPM and Celuien. The whole thing goes back to what new strategies are up- the GW will know who was what, so it's up to him/her whether or not to reveal it. A tally is just enough info to keep us sane, while being ambiguous enough to throw up some questions.

Speaking of those two- there are some young eligible maidens in need of parents. Willing to adopt?

[Celuien]

Speaking of those two- there are some young eligible maidens in need of parents. Willing to adopt?
I'm willing to bring some children and young eligible maidens into the house. What do you say, SPM? :D

[the phantom]

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?
If I'm understanding this correctly, the only difference between what I'm asking for (revealing roles at time of death) and what you are suggesting is that when a gifted is killed we won't know the role.

If a wolf is killed, you don't have to tell us "So-and-so was a wolf" because the tally will suddenly have one less wolf. And there are no multiple lynchings, so only one can die at a time during the day. At night, no wolves will be killed by wolves- the EW would see to that. And Wizards- well, they can't die without us knowing.

The only time it will make a difference is when the Seer, Ranger, or Hunter dies, instead of lmp telling us "you lost your Seer", he will simply say Gifteds=2 in the tally.

(the exception is when the Hunter is killed and he/she kills a wolf- in that case we won't know who is who and that is the primary source of confusion I can see resulting from a tally only system, but a Hunter killing a wolf doesn't happen every day of course)

All in all, I suppose a tally only system would not pose a huge concern during the Wizard phase, because the GW will just reassign that role with the nightly scry, and before the GW dies, he/she can tell the village which gifted was lost and when, if he/she feels like that information is somehow useful.

I suppose I really don't care during the Wizard phase. But, I certainly want roles revealed upon death as usual once we enter the standard Werewolf phase.

Eomer- nice to have you along for the ride! :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'll shorten my opinion (and don't let this go to your head) to "I agree with the phantom."

[Roa_Aoife]

phantom, I think you forgot to take into account that the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent. And the EW could allow for a wolf to die, for their own intentions. The only one who would know about being a gifted would be the GW, while the only one who would know about being a wolf is the EW.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm ok either way it goes-- I'd prefer, obviously, to know the final role of the deceased...But not knowing/just getting a tally adds to the suspicion and suspense.

I think that the game is going to be (brilliant) chaos, and that we're going to need whatever shred of sanity we can get, be it a tally, or an actual role.

And welcome to the fun, Eomer! :D

[the phantom]

the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent.
Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift. The only exception is if the nightly curse found the GW, which is not a likely option, and can only happen a maximum of once in a game.

As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

Let's look at a complex situation. If the GW de-wolves, the EW de-gifts, and the wolves kill an ordo all on one night, the number of Gifteds would decrease by one, Wolves would decrease by one, Wizards would stay at two, and Ordinaries would increase by one.

The village could quickly deduce that only one kill was made. Only the wolves, the hunter, or a meeting of wizards can kill. If it was a meeting of wizards that killed, then how could the number of both gifteds and wolves be reduced? In order for the Hunter to kill, he must be killed, but that would result in two deaths. The village would quickly work out that the death must have resulted from the wolves, and that the loss of the wolf and the gifted was due to the Wizard's nightly activities, meaning that it was an ordo who was killed and not a gifted.

As you can see, in most situations it is possible to figure out from the tally if a gifted was killed or de-gifted.

Now, once there are multiple killings at night, then the situation is more complicated, because there is no way of knowing which of the three individuals killed was the gifted (though as always we will be able to tell if the reduction in the number of gifteds was due to the EW or the wolves, which is nice).

And, of course, the GW can help clear up any confusion if he/she chooses by moving into the open.

[Roa_Aoife]

Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift.

Not necessarily. What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed? The tally would show the wolves staying the same, while the gifteds go down one, and we have a dead villager. We don't know if the villager was a gifted who was killed or if the EW de-gifted someone at the same time the GW is uncursing someone else, unless the uncursed wolf comes forward, which they might not, because they might not be believed, or they might hope to be recursed the following Night.


As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

It goes back to strategy- if we only get tallies and not roles, then the EW could allow a wolf to die (especially once he/she gets enough wolves to afford the risk) to add to the general confusion and paranoia.

[littlemanpoet]

..... at least I think my tired brain has this worked out right. Please, please, please, say "IN FAVOR" or "NOT IN FAVOR" so my bleary eyes don't have to read and re-read the complexities of your arguments to figure out what you think. This game's hard enough for even ME to keep track of. :p (but I love the way you guys are getting into it :D )

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 5

SPM
Celuien
Roa Aoife
the phantom
Feanor

Not in favor: 4

Lalaith
Nogrod
Diamond
Eonwe

Doesn't care: 1

Azaelia of Willowbottom

[the phantom]

What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed?
If that happened, the numbers would indicate that the other possibility is that the EW un-gifted someone, the GW scried an Ordo (with all three gifted roles already being filled), and the wolves killed an Ordo (or that the EW scried the GW, which is a rare one time occurence).

But in that situation, wouldn't the un-gifted come forward? He might as well. He is likely to be a pawn of the Wizards over the next couple of days, sure to be killed, re-gifted, cursed, or fought over in a wizard battle (or even if not, he will surely fear it, and the Wizards will consider it).

And also, the GW could tell everyone what had happened. As I predicted earlier, I believe it is likely that the GW will reveal him/herself by the fourth day, partially to clear up situations such as this.

If the number of Gifteds went down and nothing else, I personally would assume that the situation you described was what happened, unless someone told me different. And that's not even taking into account the possibility of, like you suggested, the uncursed Wolf coming forward.

Of course, you are completely right that there is another possibility (or two) in this situation and that my in-game assumptions may be wrong, but generally the tally will give enough information to get by, and the times it doesn't- the situation can be quickly rectified by an uncursed or de-gifted coming forward, or even the GW himself.

That's why I don't mind a tally only system. We are able to come up with certain situations that could lead to confusion, but they won't happen all the time, they can be resolved by others (especially the GW), and will only add a moderate amount of confusion, as opposed to if lmp didn't tell us anything and we weren't sure if we had all our gifteds and only two wolves, or if a gifted had just been killed during the night, another un-gifted, and another lynched during the day, and there were ten wolves running around. A tally is much better than nothing, I think. :p

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)

[littlemanpoet]

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)You can count on it. Sorry for not clearing that up earlier.

[the phantom]

You can count on it.
Ah, good. Thank you very much.

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start? :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me! But more because if it doesn't start soon, I fear that I might live past day one and end up with time constraint issues. Impatience is merely a second thought. No... strike that... I can't wait!

[Diamond18]

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start? :)

You hear the banging on the table with various metallic kitchen implements? Accompanied by the chant of "Start the game! Start the game! We want werewolf! We want werewolf!"? That's coming from me.

[Lhunardawen]

Wha!?! I never agreed to this! We definitely left that one in the air. You can't just go marrying people behind their backs!

But now that you mention it, it doesn't sound like too bad of an arrangment, if you can get past the arranged part... Neither did I! I was just wondering if it will work out...but if you've accepted it, then I'm fine with that.


And I look forward to gaming with all of you. Now, to assimilate all this new info. What a perfect way to spend a few hours: reading about Werewolf! So why didn't you join earlier? I could have...uh...committed...uh... :D


By the way: NOT IN FAVOR.

[Diamond18]

Having procured Lhuna's consent (IM), I'd like to add another daughter to our passel. She will be the eldest daughter -- which makes Eonwe the son-in-law of Nogrod and I. I figured the only thing this village was missing so far was a mother-in-law. Mwah ha ha.

Er, I suppose I should ask Nogrod, do you mind the addition? No, of course you don't, my dear, so that's settled. Good, good. I shall annoy the young couple with pressure for grandchildren, and surely Eonwe will be looking to murder me the first chance he gets. :D

Oh, and a clarification to the roles/not-roles matter. I suppose it doesn't matter to me so much if an individual person's role upon death is revealed, as much as having the Day and Night tallies of how may wolves there are and how many gifteds of what kind there are. It's less important to know who so-and-so was at the moment of their death as knowing what the overall situation is. So I'm:

SORT OF IN FAVOR OR NOT IN FAVOR DEPENDING ON HOW EXACTLY THINGS ARE DONE. :p

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm supporting selerinya.

++NOT IN FAVOUR

[Thinlómien]

I'd prefer to know the role of the killed one, but not the previous roles. That'd cause enough but not too much confusion.

A question to LMP: The rules say that the EW can lie to his/her "subjects". What about the GW?

[Lalaith]

My problem with not knowing roles at time of death, is that it makes it harder for non-Wizard players to participate in the game in a meaningful way.
Non-Wizard players are of course going to be wizarding pawns to some extent, as the wizards have more knowledge and power than the rest of us. The shifting roles of players, the lack of any group behaviour by the wolves, is going to make it hard to make choices, votes etc that are anything but random, and having no identity clues at all after death is going to make that even harder.

Oh and I have another question. If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?

[The Saucepan Man]

My suggestion that we not know the roles of those who have died was just that, a suggestion, born of the dynamics that I enjoyed in Diamond's game. I had not really thought through the consequences in detail, as has been done (mainly by TP and Roa) since. Ultimately, I am happy either way, but my vote will remain in favour. I like paranoia and confusion. :cool:

My problem with not knowing roles at time of death, is that it makes it harder for non-Wizard players to participate in the game in a meaningful way.In light of the complex discussions above over the consequences of knowing the tallies but not the final roles, it would certainly give them something to talk about. And by doing so, they would be aiding the Wizard to whom they owed allegiance at that point.

I'm willing to bring some children and young eligible maidens into the house. What do you say, SPM?I'm fine with that. As the childbearer, the choice of offspring is yours. :D

But these relationships are getting confusing. Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...

[Kuruharan]

If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?

The Good Wizard now knows the name of another innocent for the next DAY (since the werewolf curse comes before the GW scry). That is not entirely "nothing."

I wouldn't worry about this too much. I don't think it will happen often, if at all...unless the werewolves are suffering a rout.

[Celuien]

My suggestion that we not know the roles of those who have died was just that, a suggestion, born of the dynamics that I enjoyed in Diamond's game. I had not really thought through the consequences in detail, as has been done (mainly by TP and Roa) since. Ultimately, I am happy either way, but my vote will remain in favour. I like paranoia and confusion. :cool:
That's essentially my opinion as well.

I'm fine with that. As the childbearer, the choice of offspring is yours. :D

Prepare for our humble cottage to be overrun by children. :D

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, phantom, as my father would say, we seem to be in violent agreement. (I end up in that alot....) We seem to agree that knowing tallies is enough information to play with while still being mildly ambiguous so as to require some level of thought. I imagine we can have even more fun discussing this on Day 1.

And I'm more than ready for this game to start. :D

[Cailín]

I'm with Azaelia on this one.

Though I'm not sure what she's saying. But I totally agree.

[Naria]

*sigh* Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

Come on, does no one want me :( ? Am I really that scary? I won't bite.....hard :D

[Kath]

I'd marry you Naria! But I'm not sure that's quite canon, plus Glirdy might attack you.

[Naria]

Awww, thanks Kath! I feel a little more loved now :eek: :D !

Glirdy, Shmerdy.....Ha ha I can take him on anyday!

[Glirdan]

Oooo!! I get to attack Naria!? Interesting!! She's mine I tell you! Mine!! :p Idea! Naria, why don't you be a child and we (you and I) compete for Kath?

Oh by the way, not in favor.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Whatever The Phantom says, that's what I agree with.

And I need some sort of relationship. Hmm, can I be an old flame of Lhuna's? :D Possibly someone's brother or wayward cousin. I would also like some sort of unlikeable profession. Perhaps a snake-oil merchant would do the trick.

[the phantom]

The Good Wizard now knows the name of another innocent for the next DAY (since the werewolf curse comes before the GW scry). That is not entirely "nothing."
In other words, the GW, when not gifting or unwolfing, is a second Seer.
we seem to be in violent agreement
Yes, yes- is there anything better?
Whatever The Phantom says, that's what I agree with.
I agree with the phantom.
I only hope I attract such trust and loyalty during the game.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm supporting selerinya.

++NOT IN FAVOURDoes this mean you're playing?

The rules say that the EW can lie to his/her "subjects". What about the GW?The GW can lie too.

If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?The GW has another known innocent. .... and as I've said before, is lucky to be in such a luxurious position of having all gifteds in operation such that s/he can function as a seer.

Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...I've PM'd him.

current tally:

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 6

SPM
Celuien
Roa Aoife
the phantom
Feanor
Eomer

Not in favor: 8

Lalaith
Nogrod
Diamond
Eonwe
Lhunardawen
Nilpaurion
Thinlomien
Glirdan

Doesn't care: 3

Azaelia of Willowbottom
Diamond
Cailín

17 votes in, 14 not yet in. Yes, that makes 31. That's because I'm counting our 2 maybes and 2 sub-mods.

Okay, I'm going to make a decision in the next few days as to who our two wizards are. We have 27 players, and that's really enough. I'll take up to 30 if you volunteer by the time we begin play.

We will begin Night Phase One on Wednesday at 6 pm EDT (10 GMT).

[Caranlondien]

Well, after much consideration, I find myself totally ambivalent as concerns the tallies/final role issue. I can see the game being interesting either way. So put my ballot in the "Doesn't Care" pile.

[Loki]

Hello there. I'm new to the forums, and was told to check out the Werewolf games. Sign me up.

[Roa_Aoife]

Hello Loki. You picked one hell of a game to start with. Good luck. You need an age group and a profession. This (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=465928&postcount=2947) is where the rules for this particular game are listed. Enjoy!

[Nogrod]

Lets just get all of the family together! So welcome Lhuna, my eldest daughter, and my pride! And Eonwe, rest assured of my suspicions from the dAy1 onwards! My daughters are not on sale to any werecreatures!

And as lmp has not voiced any rules concerninig the families, well...

[Diamond18]

But these relationships are getting confusing. Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...

I actually have software specifically designed for making family trees and genealogical records. Rad, huh? Of course, I'd rather just let Hookbill do something.

However, I did write up this handy little guide, because I was bored:

Nogrod + Diamond
- Lhuna (+ Eonwe)
- Firefoot
- Azaelia

Sleepy + Roa
- Caran
- Glirdan
- Lommy

Alcarillo + Cailín

Lalaith
- Oddwen, niece

SpM + Celuien (& JennyHallu, Celuien's sister)

Eonwe + Lhuna

Nilp + Spawn

Unattached and parentless so far:

Kath
Valier
Naria
Kitanna
Gurthang
Fea
Eomer (wants to be someone's brother or cousin and an old flame of Lhuna's)

Just plain unattached:

Mormegil
the phantom
Loki

--

Noggie and I will welcome more kids if anyone wants.

[Loki]

Age Group: Middle-aged (fourty-eight).
Marital Satus: Never married.
Profession: Weary Leech-Collector for local doctors.

[JennyHallu]

I'm Celuien's sister, Di, not Lal's

[Nogrod]

C'mon people. Just two real families! Are you trying to be individualistic in here? Now just marry each other and go for the kids!

Otherwise we family-folks will just out-vote you individuals on dAY1... Sorry! Think of your own best now!

And sure
=Diamond
Noggie and I will welcome more kids if anyone wants.
Well I can't refuse - the battledore awaits, if I do not perform my marital duties... :rolleyes:

[Celuien]

Prepare for our humble cottage to be overrun by children. :D
The Panman and I are also welcoming children/eligible young maidens to our family.

Actually, the image of our driving away suitors to our eligible maidens with one of his saucepans amuses me to no end, so I'll be quite disappointed if we end up childless. :D

Any volunteers?

[Nogrod]

The Panman and I are also welcoming children/eligible young maidens to our family.

Actually, the image of our driving away suitors to our eligible maidens with one of his saucepans amuses me to no end, so I'll be quite disappointed if we end up childless. :D

Any volunteers?

Hey people, could you even dream of more weird parents? The always sensible Celuien, and the Spm? Hello! Just dramatically the most twisted parents you might have? Why don't you grasp your chance? (Were I not an old-timer with a family, I might have surely wanted to be their child) :p

[The Saucepan Man]

Were I not an old-timer with a family, I might have surely wanted to ber their childWhy not - then Celuien and I would get to be grandparents. :D

[Loki]

I'm a leech-collector. There's a damned good reason as to why I'm single.