Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Remember the old games? Where even Rangers and Guardians didn't exist? Awwww.... :D

Just to make clear: I don't demand to be next or anything. If someone has a hot idea then please step up.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I could certainly throw something together, I'm sure.

But I want to play again first. Eomer, you're welcome to go before me. :)

[Boromir88]

I'm game for an old time simple WW game. Does that mean we can pick our town occupations again? :-)

[Oddwen]

If there is a modding queue I would love to join. I'm not too keen on playing, so if someone needs time to plan and wants to play in the meantime I can jump in whenever. I'll be gone for a couple of days in July but other than that my schedule is fairly open.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh, don't tell me that we've all had our fix already. :p

I am all for Oddwen modding the next one so count me in among the players.

[A Little Green]

*poke*

:Merisu:

[Thinlómien]

*second poke*

Oddwen?

Or Eomer?

[satansaloser2005]

*third poke*

I'd be more keen to play than to mod, but I may have an idea for a small game if other mods need some time.

[Oddwen]

*poke back*

This thread has never showed as active when I checked. Weird.

Eomie
Greenie
Lommie
Sallie
Leggie
Inzie

I'm working full-time at the moment so the deadline will be weird for someone. Something like 10 MT, midnight Eastern, 7am Finlandtime. But I'd be happy to mod if there's still interest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm working full-time at the moment so the deadline will be weird for someone. Something like 10 MT, midnight Eastern, 7am Finlandtime. But I'd be happy to mod if there's still interest.

Thumbs up and even more thumbs up for doing the job of figuring out and posting about the different timezones. Wonderful. Won't certainly sit around for DL (heck, even Nog wouldn't... unless he does it over morning coffee), but anyway, WW is WW, no matter the deadline time. I'd be up for that.

[satansaloser2005]

I'm working full-time at the moment so the deadline will be weird for someone. Something like 10 MT, midnight Eastern, 7am Finlandtime. But I'd be happy to mod if there's still interest.

How marvelous! I'm definitely (and perhaps defiantly) in.

[Inziladun]

I think I could play. It's been far too long.

[Oddwen]

Admin thread is up (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18931)!

[satansaloser2005]

How many would be keen on a game once the new year starts? I have an idea I'd like to try depending on the number of interested parties, or I could run a pretty basic game if that better suits people's current tastes. It would be lovely to see the forum alight with suspicion once more. :)

[Loslote]

I think I could play if we start around the new year. I'd love to get back into another game! :)

[Galadriel55]

Doubt it. School starts the very first Monday of January. If you start just after New Year, that'd be the first week of term. :(

[Nerwen]

*bump* getting WW withdrawal...

[Lalaith]

Oh go on. Someone start a game. I think I have time. :Merisu:

[Kuruharan]

I was just re-reading some games and thinking, "this might be a bit of fun again."

My problem is I have completely changed from previous years (ack, years...depression :() and I am not really interested in conventional games anymore. It has to have some kind of bang to it to catch my interest, and those can be hard to set up...especially with the comparative stillness that pervades now.

What I really want to do is play in a Dead Thread game, but those are excruciatingly hard to set up because you need a lot of people.

[satansaloser2005]

We should start drumming up some players then, because I might have just such a game. :smokin:

I'll give the rules another mulling over and will get an admin thread up when I get the chance.

[Kuruharan]

We should start drumming up some players then, because I might have just such a game. :smokin:

I'll give the rules another mulling over and will get an admin thread up when I get the chance.

Woo-hoo.

[Inziladun]

I don't know about my WW potential nowadays.
I have a new work assignment with 12 hour shifts and limited computer time, though it's somewhat balanced by more frequent off days. I'm not sure if I'd be able to give a game enough attention. :(

[Kuruharan]

I don't know about my WW potential nowadays.
I have a new work assignment with 12 hour shifts and limited computer time, though it's somewhat balanced by more frequent off days. I'm not sure if I'd be able to give a game enough attention. :(

Daw, come on! People only stayed up for days on end during my game. :p;)

[satansaloser2005]

Many apologies for the radio silence. I had a few personal things come up and didn't want to get things rolling here until I was sure I'd have time.

The admin thread will be up by tomorrow evening at the latest.

[Thinlómien]

Sooo... who wants to mod the next game? :Merisu:

[Galadriel55]

Sooo... who wants to mod the next game? :Merisu:

I was actually gonna ask you and Agan one of these days if we still want to go for it. :Merisu:

[Kuruharan]

*poke*

Anybody around and plotting a game?

[Galadriel55]

*poke*

Anybody around and plotting a game?

In my head, I'm always plotting games. I must have 5 or 6 more or less developed game ideas. But modding? - or even playing? My exams start in three days. You figure.

[Kuruharan]

In my head, I'm always plotting games. I must have 5 or 6 more or less developed game ideas. But modding? - or even playing? My exams start in three days. You figure.

Well, in the grand scheme of things.

I mean right now we can only seem to manage about one game a year.

[Inziladun]

I'd be up to play, if and when a game arose.

[Loslote]

I could, too, as of just now. Finals won't be bad this year, so I have time until August, probably.

[Galadriel55]

Hmm, yeah, I definitely can't play, because it's exam season now followed by a month of vagabonding around with little time and crappy internet. But I can co-mod. If we do it now, I could even mod.

[satansaloser2005]

I have risen, awoken by the smell of fresh cupcakes and impending murder.

A game, you say?

[Nerwen]

A game? A game?? A GAME???!!!!
:D:cool::smokin:

[Kuruharan]

Sally returns to us! Huzzah!

So I have a modest little idea for a game. Okay, it isn't that modest, but it wouldn't need to be as gargantuan as the EXTRAVAGANZA (although my idea is scalable so it could be :D).

I know I modded recently in the scale of games played so I'm happy to defer.

[Lalaith]

I think I'm up for a game...:smokin:

[Kuruharan]

Galadriel did you want to mod?

[Galadriel55]

Galadriel did you want to mod?

As I'm gonna start travelling soon, I may not always rely on good internet access, and definitely won't be able to read the game in a timely manner - or follow along throughout the day. While I have a few ideas for games, I don't think I'd be a very effective mod right now. So take if off.

[Kuruharan]

Alrighty.

I am currently soliciting some expert opinions on another experimental format. Alas, some people don't frequent the Downs any more or have full PM boxes. :(

My idea will probably require 13-15 people to work...which may be a bit of a challenge as well in these latter days.

[Nerwen]

Alrighty.

I am currently soliciting some expert opinions on another experimental format. Alas, some people don't frequent the Downs any more or have full PM boxes. :(

My idea will probably require 13-15 people to work...which may be a bit of a challenge as well in these latter days.
Will I do as an "expert"?

[Boromir88]

I'm open ears for some WW ideas and can probably join in a game

[Kuruharan]

Will I do as an "expert"?

Always and Forever!

However, in this context expert should be interpreted to mean "pioneer of a specific game type or mod of the same."

However, I suspect I've gotten as much input from that demographic as I am going to get.

I'll be posting my draft rules...probably tomorrow as today is looking kind of full.

I may do it in this thread to ensure maximum notice of them.

[Kuruharan]

Behold my fiendish creation: Dueling Wizards, Deadthread Werewolf!!!! *dun dun dun dun*

What follows is a stripped down version of the draft rules, removing a lot of the usual minutiae, but I fear it is still kind of lengthy.

Wizards
There is a Good Wizard and an Evil Wizard. They are the driving force of much of the game. They are the only two roles that are assigned by me at the start of the game. They cannot be killed by normal means; they must be killed by each other in a Wizard’s Duel (which should be thought of as being pronounced Weeeeezaaard's Duuuuel in a ridiculous high-pitched voice) in which both of them will perish. They will stay in the Dead Thread after death. They have no special ability to communicate across the barrier of death.

The game commences and the Wizards begin their picks on NIGHT 1. Wizards make their selections one at a time. The Evil Wizard and the newly minted werewolf cannot make a kill on NIGHT 1 but the newly minted Gifted can begin performing their function immediately. If the Good Wizard and the Evil Wizard pick the same person (including on NIGHT 1) the picks are both nullified but that is all. The pick target does not die nor are the Wizards made aware of each other’s identity through this action. The picks in this game are limited and do not replenish. Once the number of picks available to each Wizard is expended there are no more.

There is nothing in the rules necessarily saying that the Wizards have to keep their identities a secret, but at some point in the game the other side has to kill them so they should probably keep their identity hush-hush for as long as possible.

Good Wizard – The Good Wizard creates the Hunter, the Ranger, and (at least) one Visitor. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a Gifted is not created the Good Wizard may scry the role of a player. The Good Wizard is informed of the role of the target exactly. If the Good Wizard picks a wolf for converting into a Gifted that pick is deterred but the Good Wizard keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Good Wizard scrys the Evil Wizard, the Good Wizard is informed of the identity of the Evil Wizard. The Good Wizard is never in direct communication with the Gifteds, nor are the Gifteds ever in communication with each other. The Good Wizard may send messages via the mod while alive to the Gifteds but may not share the Gifted’s identities with each other. This is RPed as dreams so will occur during the NIGHT phase. If a Gifted is killed and the Good Wizard has expended all three picks in creating Gifteds, that Gifted cannot be replaced.

Evil Wizard – The Evil Wizard may pick 3 wolves in total during the NIGHT. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a wolf is not created the Evil Wizard may scry the role of the target in quest of finding the Good Wizard. That is the only information that the Evil Wizard will find out. If the scry target is a Gifted that will not be revealed to the Evil Wizard. If the Evil Wizard picks a Gifted for converting into a wolf that pick is deterred but the Evil Wizard still keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Evil Wizard scrys the Good Wizard, the Evil Wizard is informed of the identity of the Good Wizard. The Evil Wizard and Wolves are able to PM each other during the NIGHT phase. Their identities are not secret from each other and there are no re-conversions from one side to the other in this game. If a wolf is killed in the game and the Evil Wizard has expended all three picks in creating wolves, that wolf cannot be replaced. The Evil Wizard cannot communicate with the wolves across the barrier of death.

Gifteds
Hunter - Usual Hunter role

Ranger - Usual Ranger role except that unlike other Dead Thread games the Ranger cannot return from the dead. That function is fulfilled by the Visitor(s).

Visitor - The Visitor role is the role that can pass between the Living Thread and the Dead Thread. The Visitor is created by the Good Wizard. Once the Visitor enters the Dead Thread they remain there for a DAY/NIGHT cycle. Then they return to the Living Thread, assuming the game is still ongoing. This is not a Lover role. They are guaranteed to return if the game continues. The Visitor remains in the Living Thread and can vote for one DAY and then returns to the Dead Thread permanently.

I am not sure if the Good Wizard should be able to inadvertently make a wolf a Visitor or if there should be one or two Visitors.

Wolves
Standard wolf pack in almost all respects except for how they are generated.

Winding Up
Those are the roles I have sketched out in my head at the present. Due to the powers of the Good Wizard I am skeptical of including a Seer in this game. It seems redundant and I think biases the game against the wolves too much.

The reason why I don't plan to allow reconversions, am keeping the number of picks limited in this game, and am allowing the Bad side to know each others identities is that I'm expecting this to be a rather low population game. These latter days we struggle to get many people to sign up for games and I want to make it workable for a smaller group. I'm not necessarily wedded to the specific numbers yet. I'm also not certain if there should be one or two Visitors. If there is the chance for the GW to pick a wolf as a Visitor then I think there needs to be two Visitors.

If we suddenly get a rush of sign ups and it looks like the population might be higher than I anticipate I might change some of the above.

Comments? Criticisms?

EDIT Forgot to mention that the Dead Thread will function the same way as the last Dead Thread game as far as vote empowerment etc.

[Loslote]

I've never played a Dueling Wizards game before, so I don't have comments or anything, but I'm definitely excited! :D Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

[Nerwen]

Oooh! Exciting!:cool:


I've technically played in one Duelling Wizards game, but I died very early. Still, here are some suggestions/comments:

1. I agree the Seer is redundant.

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

[Kuruharan]

Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

-and-

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

To me the "usual hunters" are as illogical as possible. Probably because of a hazy and scarring memory from the distant past where as a Hunter I accidently took out the Seer or something...I don't remember exactly what my blunder was...I just remember it being baaaaad. :o

As for the Ranger: can't protect the same target twice in a row but can protect the same target multiple times, so theoretically could protect the same person every other NIGHT over and over again.

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

I know. That is the problem.

I don't want to set up a situation via the rules where one decision by one individual basically wins the game for one side and having only one Visitor could do that. While having two Visitors would dilute the power a bit it would add to the number of players needed for the game.

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would the phantom do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on. :p

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

No, roles would not be revealed on death. The only way for the "General Public" to find out a role for sure is in the dead thread during the NIGHTly reveal vote.

My calculations (which might be horribly wrong) say that we need a minimum of 13-15 players to make this work...more would be awesome.

So start working Facebook, everybody! :D

[Galadriel55]

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would*the phantom*do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.

It would definitely involve a disregard for the intended twist of the game, a very convincing false reveal, and annoying the pants off of half the village. :D

[Nerwen]

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would*the phantom*do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.
This should be framed and hung on the wall of every mod planning an experimental game.

[Nerwen]

Another clarification request- how does the Visitor enter the Dead Thread in the first place? Only by being lynched or killed? Or is there a voluntary option?

[Nerwen]

Do we feel like making another attempt at recruiting those highbrow types from their ivory tower in the Books forum?:Merisu:

[Kuruharan]

Another clarification request- how does the Visitor enter the Dead Thread in the first place? Only by being lynched or killed? Or is there a voluntary option?

Ahh...you noticed my ambiguity on that point.

I haven't completely decided. :o

I am, however, open to opinions.

It does seem a little odd to my mind to pick a Visitor and then try to kill them, but at the same time in the other Dead Thread games the special people in question also had to be killed. The difference this time is the Good Wizard would be deliberately picking a Visitor.

This also brings up the question of do I tell the Visitor that they have been picked as such. We must bring Nilp out of retirement. This could be a role where he could really shine. :D

Of course for him at this point it is a little bit of been there done that.

[Nerwen]

Ahh...you noticed my ambiguity on that point.

I haven't completely decided. :o

I am, however, open to opinions.

It does seem a little odd to my mind to pick a Visitor and then try to kill them, but at the same time in the other Dead Thread games the special people in question also had to be killed. The difference this time is the Good Wizard would be deliberately picking a Visitor.

This also brings up the question of do I tell the Visitor that they have been picked as such. We must bring Nilp out of retirement. This could be a role where he could really shine. :D

Of course for him at this point it is a little bit of been there done that.
This actually made me laugh out loud for ages, like a lunatic.:D. Lucky there's no-one else home.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps a compromise...one Visitor goes into the Dead Thread at the start of the next DAY and the other Visitor has to be killed?

That might spice up the tactical options a bit.

[Nerwen]

Perhaps a compromise...one Visitor goes into the Dead Thread at the start of the next DAY and the other Visitor has to be killed?

That might spice up the tactical options a bit.
For some reason (idiocy, probably) I read this as a sort of conditional statement- "If Visitor #1 goes into the Dead Thread then Visitor #2 has to be killed [the Day after]", but you just mean their roles work differently, right?

[Nerwen]

So, about the setting- do you have anything in mind?

[Kuruharan]

For some reason (idiocy, probably) I read this as a sort of conditional statement- "If Visitor #1 goes into the Dead Thread then Visitor #2 has to be killed [the Day after]", but you just mean their roles work differently, right?

Yes, roles that work differently.

So, about the setting- do you have anything in mind?

I was sort of thinking a setting of I invite everybody back to my place to make amends for forcing them to watch that horrible movie last time. There's no way that could go wrong...right?

Do you have a suggestion? :Merisu:

I will probably post a sign-up thread this weekend and see if we have enough interest to actually get this thing off the ground.

[Nerwen]

Yes, roles that work differently.



I was sort of thinking a setting of I invite everybody back to my place to make amends for forcing them to watch that horrible movie last time. There's no way that could go wrong...right?

Do you have a suggestion? :Merisu:
Well, generally I prefer Middle-earth settings for these games, but that's just me. I could wander off and try to come up with a specific one if you like, though. Of course by now everything has been probably been done before at least once, though...

[Nerwen]

Let's see... in no particular order, we've set them in the Shire (several times- we seem to find the notion of Hobbit bloodbaths strangely poignant), in Rohan, in Gondolin, in Minas Tirith, in Lorien, in Valinor(!), among the Woodmen, among the Rangers, on Amon Rudh, in Bree, in Numenor (several times), in Belfalas, in Harad, in Lorien, in Brethil, among the Lossoth (the first Duelling Wizards), among the Wargs, among the Trolls, on the Helcaraxe, in Beorn's house, in Tom Bombadil's house, on the actual Barrowdowns, among the Corsairs (repeatedly- arrr, we like to be pirates, me hearties!), in Angband, in Utumno, on Ard-Galen (the first Dead Thread game), in Hithlum, in Ossiriand, in Erebor, in Laketown, in Shelob's lair, in Ithilien, in the Misty Mountains, under the Misty Mountains (in which we were Orcs and oddly enough the game ended in a bloody massacre of the entire village- ya hoi!), in Tol-in-Gaurhoth itself (twice) and there was even an alternate history one wherein Saruman returned to the light and somehow persuaded the Council to form an entirely different Fellowship including Uglúk!:eek:

Well, revisiting all these past glories has occupied a rainy evening for me, but it does show the difficulty of finding an unused Middle-earth setting.:(

However, there are a few notable locations that don't seem to have been used yet, including, oddly enough, Rivendell. You could perhaps do something with that. Eregion at the time of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain also strikes me as having potential for a Duelling Wizards game, and then there are still some vacant- as it were- First Age settings, including Doriath and Nargothrond. Also I don't think there's been one set in Thranduil's halls, or in Fangorn (though perhaps that's for the best, given what dedicated roleplayers we all are- Day One alone could take weeks).

Anyway, it's your game, so feel free to use these suggestions or not as you like. As I said, it's been fun looking up these old threads anyway.

[Kuruharan]

Well, generally I prefer Middle-earth settings for these games

My place is in Middle-earth. :p

[Kuruharan]

I have created the admin thread for Dueling Wizards III here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=706660#post706660).

Everyone who said they wanted to sign up for this game please affirm that in the other thread.

Also, please continue any rules discussion in that thread.

[Nerwen]

My place is in Middle-earth. :p
So were we watching this movie of which you speak on your palantir? Or perhaps on the Morgul™ Home Entertainment System? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=704816&postcount=134):Merisu:

[Kuruharan]

So were we watching this movie of which you speak on your palantir? Or perhaps on the Morgul™ Home Entertainment System? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=704816&postcount=134):Merisu:

I am a trader of wide contacts... :D

[Kuruharan]

Since sign ups have been so slow, I am setting a deadline of June 24 to assemble enough players to start my game.

We are only short two players so if we get them we can begin.

[Galadriel55]

Played Mafia with a few friends face-to-face for the first time since starting to play Werewolf. Those guys have the worst Day Ones, they just go straight to random voting without any preamble. No bluffs or double bluffs. No fake reveals. No reverse psychology. No wolf-on-wolf (a fellow mafia was very panicked and confused when I sent some harmless suspicion their way). Suspicion is based on whether the person was innocent or not in the previous game. Gifteds can't hint, and ordos don't watch for hints coming their way. Ahhh, the poor sweet summer children. They didn't have the Downs to teach them. :D

[Kuruharan]

Send them our way.

We will train them up.

[Galadriel55]

Hey folks! Who's up for a fairly basic game?

It's busy, but I am clearly faced with no choice but to embrace WW, as the alternative is writing an extremely detestable essay assignment. So please help spare me some of my misery by providing entertainment that will also encourage the state of inspiration known as last minute panic some weeks hence.

So, who's in?

[Inziladun]

I think I could make time for a game, especially of the simpler variety.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Hey folks! Who's up for a fairly basic game?

It's busy, but I am clearly faced with no choice but to embrace WW, as the alternative is writing an extremely detestable essay assignment. So please help spare me some of my misery by providing entertainment that will also encourage the state of inspiration known as last minute panic some weeks hence.

So, who's in?

The last two times I played I got killed off early.

It scarred me. I had been anticipating the shenanigans, with the same stoic demeanor of an adolescent on a strict sugarcane diet the day before christmas. My early demise upset me so, that I left the WW lifestyle behind me.

Anyways a year or two has gone by, the wounds have become strong scars. I think I am ready for another round.

[Inziladun]

The last two times I played I got killed off early.

For me, maybe the last dozen times? ;)

[Nerwen]

As always, count me in.:smokin:

[Galadriel55]

Well, three is company - I'll open a thread soon.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

For me, maybe the last dozen times? ;)

Well some people handle adversity better than others, and I, I am but a delicate flower.

[Inziladun]

Well some people handle adversity better than others, and I, I am but a delicate flower.

After a while, you just embrace the idea of being cannon fodder. :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

I know I'm going to regret this because I don't really have time for a game right now, but....

Anyone want to play some Werewolf?

:Merisu:

[Inziladun]

It's hard for me to play at work now, it's grass cutting season, many RL things intruding...but...yes. ;)

[Nogrod]

Let's play Werewolf again?

I know some people (myself included) have been joking lately, that with the global situation being what it is, a game of Werewolf could be in place. We discussed this with Thinlomien and A Little Green just a moment ago and decided that I'd go and make an actual suggestion of it here. So why not play a game for a looong time?

If there would be willing players to play a game, there would be a couple of things we'd need to consider.


Modding: Most people surely crave for playing rather than modding now. I could mod the game unless there is someone who would really want to do that. In case there are many people wishing to mod a game, let's see if we have those old modding-lists somewhere, and then see who of the willing are highest on that list.


Game-mechanics: My initial idea was, that this would call for a really basic "old school" game, but then I managed to think it twice. The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.


Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.


So, what say you? Shall we play?

[Thinlómien]

So, what say you? Shall we play?Yes please! :D

A basic game would be nice (perhaps with a cobbler thrown in if we have enough players...? one can always hope) but I'm not opposed to a dead thread if the rules are as simple as they were the last time. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am very happy that there is a brave soul who would suggest it! I am sure there are more of the same mind.

I would also advocate for a simple game, nothing too experimental. A basic Wolves-Seer-Ranger-Hunter-possibly Cobbler setup would be fine.

The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.
A good observation. I agree with that sentiment. Perhaps we (and yes, I already said "we"; clearly I am already counting on this happening and counting with me being there - woe is me...) could have a dead thread - maybe with some simple power such as giving the one extra vote to a person every day, meaning empowering one of the living they trust, or somesuch. Even though I remember it frustrated me to no end as a Wolf. But isn't frustration an inseparable part of a good WW game? :smokin:

Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.
For myself, I don't think it a problem. I would exactly think it appropriate. "If we can't do very much about it, we can at least laugh about it," as one great artist compatriot of mine once said.

[Huinesoron]

I totally don't have time for this, so I'm in if you'll have me. :)

If you're looking at a Halls of Waiting thread, does that imply that roles & alignment aren't revealed on death? I don't even remember how the Downs usually does that, but being outed as a wolf could make interacting in the Halls kind of depressing. On the other hand, reveal-less deaths could make being in the village rather frustrating.

hS

[Loslote]

I would absolutely be interested in playing a game of Werewolf! I am getting very restless being at home all day every day, and having deadlines every day might even help me remember what day it is. :confused:

[Pitchwife]

Oh great Googly-Moogly, it's actually happening! Go Noggins!:D

I'm in, of course. I don't remember actually playing in a game with a dead thread (which is to say I probably have, but it's been too long), so that would be cool.

Also, I'm totally for a CoH plague setting, if only because it opens up all kinds of possibilities for banter about killing Lalaith (Túrin's sister, not the Downer; athough possibly that too, it depends;)).

I totally don't have time for this, so I'm in if you'll have me.
I see you've caught the spirit.:D

[Kath]

We really are back a decade aren't we? And it's so lovely to be with you all again! I would love to join the game. Basic rules would be perfect as it's been such a long time and I'd be happy with a tongue-in-cheek plague setting.

Dead Thread sounds interesting but agreed - not sure how it would work if roles are revealed upon lynching ...

[Galadriel55]

I see you've caught the spirit.:D

What? He's caught it? He's caught the spirit? Get away from me. 2 meter distance. Don't you dare step closer. And put a mask on! :p


Depending on when the game will happen, I might only be able to play for half a week at a time. But with a dead thread that might not be too bad, assuming I live bright and die young. :D

[Lhunardawen]

Whyyyyy did this happen just when I was about to start working again??? (Yeah I know, odd timing, but there it is.)

But what the Angamandi, sign me up. Has a dead thread game been played before? My last game was 9 years ago. :eek:

[Inziladun]

Still in the same boat: uncertain ability to play at work, early bedtime, grass-cutting season again...but how could I refuse? ;)

[Kitanna]

I think I can manage to play. It's been so long, I'll probably just make wild accusations and die Day 1, but you know what? I'm ok with that.

[Inziladun]

I think I can manage to play. It's been so long, I'll probably just make wild accusations and die Day 1, but you know what? I'm ok with that.

Hey, that's my mode of operation! :p

[Kitanna]

Hey, that's my mode of operation! :p
Let the race to be lynched first begin!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If you're looking at a Halls of Waiting thread, does that imply that roles & alignment aren't revealed on death? I don't even remember how the Downs usually does that, but being outed as a wolf could make interacting in the Halls kind of depressing. On the other hand, reveal-less deaths could make being in the village rather frustrating.

Good point to raise.

As far as I am concerned, I'd 100% advocate for revealing the roles upon death, no complicated nonsense with sending true revelations from the dead thread and so on.

It might make dead Wolves somewhat isolated from the community, but I remember many having fun with this (see various phantom-esque existences just trolling to no end). I mean, nothing prevents a dead Wolf from participating in the Dead discussion - whether anyone is going to pay attention to them is a different thing. Unless someone created a "sub-plot" for the Dead thread (but it should be something that would not interfere with the Living too much, or ideally not at all).

In the absolutely worst case, a Wolf will end up lynched on Day 1, then ostracised by fellow dead, and will be bored for the rest of the game. But that is the worst-case scenario for one person, as opposed to everyone else. I think it's worth it.

Of course, if we can think of any way to make it better, I'm open for it, but let's not contrive too complicated schemes.

[Huinesoron]

It might make dead Wolves somewhat isolated from the community, but I remember many having fun with this (see various phantom-esque existences just trolling to no end). I mean, nothing prevents a dead Wolf from participating in the Dead discussion - whether anyone is going to pay attention to them is a different thing. Unless someone created a "sub-plot" for the Dead thread (but it should be something that would not interfere with the Living too much, or ideally not at all).

And I suppose there's also the fact that a dead Wolf still doesn't have to tell the truth about who their remaining packmates are... okay, as I'm sure you're relieve to hear (;)) I'm convinced on that point.

hS

[Galadriel55]

And I suppose there's also the fact that a dead Wolf still doesn't have to tell the truth about who their remaining packmates are... okay, as I'm sure you're relieve to hear (;)) I'm convinced on that point.

hS

Now I wanna be the first dead wolf, to troll people about my packmates. :D

[Nogrod]

I'm in on plotting the game (have been re-reading The CoH) and will open a discussion thread for it in a moment. Let's continue the discussion of the rules there.

I think I have quite a quite a nice solution to both problems brought forth here, aka. revealing the roles vs. keeping the "dead thread" interesting and how to make the DT simple & balanced in view of the dynamics of the whole game.

I'll post my initial ideas shortly in the game discussion thread.

[Urwen]

Um.....Could I play too? I am, like, super stoked for CoH theme...

[Nogrod]

Um.....Could I play too? I am, like, super stoked for CoH theme...
Of course. Welcome!

I'll add you to the player list in the discussion thread.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Let's play Werewolf again?

I know some people (myself included) have been joking lately, that with the global situation being what it is, a game of Werewolf could be in place. We discussed this with Thinlomien and A Little Green just a moment ago and decided that I'd go and make an actual suggestion of it here. So why not play a game for a looong time?

If there would be willing players to play a game, there would be a couple of things we'd need to consider.


Modding: Most people surely crave for playing rather than modding now. I could mod the game unless there is someone who would really want to do that. In case there are many people wishing to mod a game, let's see if we have those old modding-lists somewhere, and then see who of the willing are highest on that list.


Game-mechanics: My initial idea was, that this would call for a really basic "old school" game, but then I managed to think it twice. The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.


Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.


So, what say you? Shall we play?

If there is a dead-thread and you can accept that my participation will be limited to the hours around midnight CET, then I am game.

Let the race to be lynched first begin!
I am sure I will unwittingly join this race.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Just to elaborate.

I will aim to participate as much as possible, but weekdays where I am at the office all day and with the kid at night will be limited to a late login.

When I work from home, or weekends/bank holidays I imagine I will be more active.

[Nogrod]

Nice to have you in Rune!

[THE Ka]

I've avoided playing for awhile since it always seems real life rips me away too soon in games (which is not fair to the rest), but given that I've been locked down under quarantine with no end in sight, I'd like to ask if there is room for one more?

Fair warning, It's been a long time since I've played, but I think I can manage to catch up. :)

I am sure I will unwittingly join this race.

Don't worry, I'm sure I'd be joining you quickly enough if my past play is anything to judge by...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Out of general curiosity, how do you guys keep track of what goes on in a game?

Do you use any sort of tools for keeping track or organizing your thoughts?

I am normally very bad at remembering what has transpired, and scrolling/reading through the thread is incredible time consuming. I have been toying with the idea of using a spreadsheet of sorts, but I cannot wrap my head around a good way of setting this up.

[Boromir88]

Out of general curiosity, how do you guys keep track of what goes on in a game?

Do you use any sort of tools for keeping track or organizing your thoughts?

I am normally very bad at remembering what has transpired, and scrolling/reading through the thread is incredible time consuming. I have been toying with the idea of using a spreadsheet of sorts, but I cannot wrap my head around a good way of setting this up.

Yes it does get to be pretty difficult to keep track of all the posts, especially in larger games. Reading everything is daunting.

I, for the most part, just keep track of who voted for who, in what order and write down the post number they voted as a reference. If something stood out unusual/odd scrolling through a thread of a bunch of posts is time consuming and frustrating. The best tool for me is on the main forum page, click replies to bring a window of how many posts each person made in the thread. And I click on their number if I wanted to read through and find the replies from a specific person. I use that a lot when playing in a game.

[Urwen]

Maybe the one after the CoH one could be FoG-themed?

(I call dibs on More-leg)

[Pitchwife]

Yes it does get to be pretty difficult to keep track of all the posts, especially in larger games. Reading everything is daunting.
That's why I've pretty much given up on trying to post detailed analyses, especially in villages as large as in this game (it's not a village anymore, it's a city!). I may notice all that stuff (well, some of it), but by the time I've written it all out with all the pertinent quotes the game has moved on already.


I have been toying with the idea of using a spreadsheet of sorts, but I cannot wrap my head around a good way of setting this up.
You want to talk to phantom about that, I've been told he's the master of systematic werewolvery.
Me, I just keep a record of the voting tally and jot down things that stand out - possible wolf tells if I'm innocent, things I can use against innocents if I'm a wolf, but not a lot of either. Mostly I sort of wing it - I mean, it's a game, not a doctoral thesis.


Maybe the one after the CoH one could be FoG-themed?
If there's another game in the foreseeable future that would actually be an interesting setting, if it hasn't been done yet. I mean, Maeglin is kind of the archetypal cobbler, right?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You want to talk to phantom about that, I've been told he's the master of systematic werewolvery.
Me, I just keep a record of the voting tally and jot down things that stand out - possible wolf tells if I'm innocent, things I can use against innocents if I'm a wolf, but not a lot of either. Mostly I sort of wing it - I mean, it's a game, not a doctoral thesis.


I have seen his binders. I am not sure I am quite ready to the advanced class just yet.

[Urwen]

There is also a gimmick, if you will, used on another site, where people can select their own character before the game begins. I wonder if that idea could be introduced in FoG game.

[Nogrod]

I have seen his binders. I am not sure I am quite ready to the advanced class just yet.
I remember him showing them to us as well while visiting his place almost ten years ago (well actually quite exactly, it was the end of June 2010!). Yes. I agree. That's the pro-level. :)

I used to pick up quotes with a post number to a Word-file while reading the thread through. With the help of impressions and quotes that stood up it was easier to have a hang of whom to suspect or whom to trust (or whose "slips" or unhappy wordings to use if a wolf).

But yes, with a big village (or a city!) it's quite challenging to have a clear view of what's going on.

Legate has reminded people, quite correctly, in the Discussion Thread of this game we have now, that with a lot of wolves there is a bigger probability that one of them gets lynched early and the innocents might find a track from there - but it is also true, that in a chaotic / big village those who know with whom to co-operate are having the upper hand.

Looking forwards to some interesting gaming...

[Pitchwife]

There is also a gimmick, if you will, used on another site, where people can select their own character before the game begins. I wonder if that idea could be introduced in FoG game.
We used to do something like that, pick characters or professions before the game (like, some person was the village carpenter, someone else the herbalist or blacksmith or what have you). These are mostly used in early game banter, but it tends to be frowned upon if you post too much in character, as it's easy for wolves to hide behind that. This is not an RPG, and it's important to distinguish between the character you choose and the role you're assigned by the mod.

[Blind Guardian]

Hheeyyy guys,
I've been pointed to this thread, so I just wanted to make it known that I want to play in the next game! If it happens soon - hopefully not in two years! :eek: And in August the last two classes of my Bachelor's degree start so hopefully before then too! If there's anything that I can do to help the next game happen, let me know!

edit: I also just realized that I've been invisible for years - since my last game!

[Thinlómien]

I would play another game too, assuming that there's gonna be a little breather in between (I think sometime in June would be possible?) and that it's likely gonna be a bit smaller village (I think some people may have been a little exhausted :D). I also wanted to say that I can't sadly participate as much next time as I'm going back to work on June 2nd but given my post count (forum.barrowdowns.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=19390) last game, maybe it's not entirely a bad thing... ;)

[Loslote]

I would love to play again! I have my thesis proposal on June 12th, so I might be a little distracted for a day or two around then, but a Werewolf game to keep me from stressing too much about the proposal sounds really great, haha!

[Rikae]

So, as one of those who didn't play a perfect game (in other words, not Brinn or Loslote), I'm kicking myself for hunches ignored and wild theories followed and anxious to get out there again and redeem my good werewolfing name.

Put me on the list for the next one, please! Or, if no one wants to mod, I'd be willing to step up and host a classic game (I love the experimental ones, but they also need a foil). However, I'm really itching to play again, so I'd prefer if someone else modded the next & I could join the mod queue.

[Nogrod]

I might wish to play in one too someday. Not necessarily the next week, but in June or July, yes.

Being a mod is lots of fun and hilarious - and can be thrilling as well - but there is one thing lacking: having your own neck in the noose. :)

[Boromir88]

I’m good for another game around June or so. I’ll think about modding it if needed. It would be more of a classic game though and I’d have to think of a theme.

[Brinniel]

I'd be up for another game in a month or two. Although after last game, I'll probably get killed off by Day 2. ;)

A classic game is always good, though I must admit I really like the appeal of the dead/quarantine thread. It allows those who die early in the game to still participate in some form.

Now I wanna be the first dead wolf, to troll people about my packmates.
Just saw this. Was cobbler close enough? :p

[Galadriel55]

Just saw this. Was cobbler close enough? :p

:D This is my first time as cobbler, and I do admit wholeheartedly that it's my faviurite role to play. Maybe it's just that I end up unintentionally cobbling regardless of my role. Being a QT cobbler is different from being a wolf though, cause you don't know where to troll. It was a mix of steering the QT to doubt themselves and messing around for the heck of it (like pranking the GT). I think it was less fun in the sense that there was less scheming involved, but more relaxed because I could kick back and enjoy myself without the responsibity of knowing in which direction to steer.

On this topic, I second Rikae's proposal that if this concept is used in future games (and some variant of it should be, it's a great idea to balance dead player participation), the cobbler's role should not be revealed in death, as that allows more scheming to happen on both threads. Or alternatively, when the cobbler dies, they might be able to communicate with dead wolves by PM. From the cobbler perspective, that would make you a more active and involved player as opposed to an accidental chaos sideliner (once dead).

[Boromir88]

If there aren't any objections I'll throw my hat in there and say I'll mod the summer game.

I've been kicking around some ideas with some of you already and would like further input. Seeing as it sounds like June-July will be a good period for everyone, if there aren't any objections I'll get a planning thread started over the weekend. This way I can get more input on the ideas I've been kicking around and there would be no rush to start super soon.

There will be a dead thread. That I'm already sure of. Maybe where the dead do something slightly different than Nog's game. Also a possibility of the dead wolves to have a different purpose.

My main goal is to decide to go with a game with the traditional roles or to have slightly tweaked experimental roles to fit a theme. As fun as experimental roles and games can be, I don't want to forget the ordinary villager POV in games. Over half the players will be villagers and even though I was a wolf in Nogrod's game, I think it's safe to say ordinary villagers enjoyed it as well? As to be expected there were times the villagers were wrong or manipulated, but not a single wolf voted for Huey and that in itself is quite an achievement!

So, over the weekend I can put up a planning thread with everything I've been kicking around to try. Whether you're able to participate or not I'd like a discussion on how the balance would be, and perhaps more importantly if you'd enjoy those roles and gameplay as an ordinary villager as well.

[Lhunardawen]

I think I can manage to play. It's been so long, I'll probably just make wild accusations and die Day 1, but you know what? I'm ok with that.

Hey, that's my mode of operation! :p

Let the race to be lynched first begin!

I am sure I will unwittingly join this race.

Don't worry, I'm sure I'd be joining you quickly enough if my past play is anything to judge by...

Has anyone declared Kitanna the winner of this race yet? :p


So, over the weekend I can put up a planning thread with everything I've been kicking around to try. Whether you're able to participate or not I'd like a discussion on how the balance would be, and perhaps more importantly if you'd enjoy those roles and gameplay as an ordinary villager as well.
Dead thread? Yes. Small village? Preferably. Short posts? Pretty please.

[Kuruharan]

Alas, I'm not in a position to be able to play now, but it is wonderful to see werewolf picking up on the Downs. :)

[Formendacil]

Moving discussion of "when's the next game" to a thread non-participants of the last game are more likely to find it...


A consensus on the other thread seemed to be "a bit of a break, then in July."

So: sign-ups over the next 2-3 weeks with a game start somewhere around Sunday, July 5th in the evening for a Night 1 going into Monday the 6th sound good? Any Americans with Fourth of July plans should be emerging from them, then.

As to the ongoing discussion of modding: put me on the list of those willing to do it--and I do have the Ghost idea to play with... Do we have anyone who goes beyond WILLING into the realm of WANTS TO (i.e. right now?)

[Pitchwife]

Not right now, but I'm still mulling over the idea of a tweet-style game with limits to post length & amount which Rune suggested in the game before the last.

Somebody (I think G55?) came up with the idea that posts could only be so long as to fit into the box where you type them (apparently it's a fixed size across all platforms), and that would be a nice first step - but how keep people from just breaking their walls of text into smaller chunks?

I'm toying with the idea to have DL not at a fixed time but as a moving wall cutting off the Day when a given number of pages is reached - like, the first post/vote on the next page would still count (because you don't know in advance when the page is flipped), but all thereafter wouldn't until next Day.
__________________________________________________ ____________
^this line marks what would be the maximal post length

It probably would be hell to mod (probably only doable with a co-mod, preferably in another time zone, so that one could keep an eye on the thread at all times and call DL) and quite a departure from our usual WW routines, but could be interesting I think (also would encourage early voting!)

What do y'all think?

[Formendacil]

What do y'all think?

I shall keep my post within the proscribed length as a test case. ;)

I like both ideas, but my instincts say to keep them to separate games! Or you'll end up with a sextuple-posting wordsmith single-handedly ending Day 1 while analysing Form's suspicious Anti-Day-One tirade.

I definitely think some sort of length cap would make for an interesting game. I would incline, in addition to POST length (and I agree that using "the box" is a good yardstick for that) there should also be POST volume. Say... five posts per day? I don't know--that's picking a very arbitrary number, but I have no idea without putting a great deal more thought into it than a Sunday afternoon warrants what would be a "fair" number.

[Blind Guardian]

I don't like the idea of a post volume per Day because what if someone reveals and everyone but the Wolves have used up their posts? Maybe a post volume per hour would be better. That way you can prohibit the walls of texts while still allowing posts through the day.

I do have a question: does anyone know what makes the page flip? Is it the amount of posts on a page (ie every page has 20 posts) or the size of the physical pages (ie there can be 10 super long posts on one page and thirty tiny posts on another)? That would probably factor into deciding how many pages to allow in a Day (EVERYONE GET RID OF YOUR SIGNATURES!!!). If everyone is doing the minimum then there will be most posts on a page in one Day than if there are walls of text.

Problem: on my computer this post takes up half of the text box and on my phone it it's double the size of the text box.

[Formendacil]

I don't like the idea of a post volume per Day because what if someone reveals and everyone but the Wolves have used up their posts? Maybe a post volume per hour would be better. That way you can prohibit the walls of texts while still allowing posts through the day.

I do have a question: does anyone know what makes the page flip? Is it the amount of posts on a page (ie every page has 20 posts) or the size of the physical pages (ie there can be 10 super long posts on one page and thirty tiny posts on another)? That would probably factor into deciding how many pages to allow in a Day (EVERYONE GET RID OF YOUR SIGNATURES!!!). If everyone is doing the minimum then there will be most posts on a page in one Day than if there are walls of text.

Problem: on my computer this post takes up half of the text box and on my phone it it's double the size of the text box.

The pages flips are consistent: every page is 40 posts long. That's always been true across 15 years of computers and cellphones for me. As far as the text box goes, I don't know.

[Pitchwife]

I don't like the idea of a post volume per Day because what if someone reveals and everyone but the Wolves have used up their posts? Maybe a post volume per hour would be better. That way you can prohibit the walls of texts while still allowing posts through the day.
Good point about unforeseen events and people being unable to react. As for posts per hour, I think enforcing that would be more of a hassle than it's all worth.


Since we're talking, BG, would you be interested in co-modding this with me? You said you'd like to mod, it could be a good way of getting your feet wet.


Problem: on my computer this post takes up half of the text box and on my phone it it's double the size of the text box.
Hmm, not good. I just played around with different resolutions on my laptop and the box scales accordingly (it also scales when you change the font size), so I guess it's a PC/phone problem.:(


The pages flips are consistent: every page is 40 posts long. That's always been true across 15 years of computers and cellphones for me. As far as the text box goes, I don't know.
Thanks for the info!

[Kath]

In the game we just played, for my own personal interest, I tried to keep to G55's idea of no more than the box size for posts. I can't say it was a success. :D

However, I do think it would be a really interesting way to play. BG is right that the box sizes are really different on phone vs PC but perhaps a rule of something like if on PC then the box size and if on phone then two times the box size.

[Huinesoron]

Good point about unforeseen events and people being unable to react. As for posts per hour, I think enforcing that would be more of a hassle than it's all worth.

Surely the reaction thing is part of the idea? "Ooh, I really want to reply to that accusation, but what if another one comes up that I need to respond to more...?" Plus of course, "You didn't think that was worth one of your posts, but you thought this was--?"
--This line is the bottom and width of my phone's text box--------

I think you'd need to say votes can be posted separately, to avoid 'oops I misccounted' issues. Possibly the vote post can ONLY contain a vote?

(I think the only objective standard for post lengths is character limits. EvenWordLimitsCanBeWorkedAround.)

hS

[Kath]

(I think the only objective standard for post lengths is character limits. EvenWordLimitsCanBeWorkedAround.)hS
While I agree in principle, that would mean every post would have to written in another format (e.g. Word) first and then transferred to the Downs for posting. Especially for people playing on their phone that would be a major hassle.

[Pitchwife]

I think you'd need to say votes can be posted separately, to avoid 'oops I misccounted' issues. Possibly the vote post can ONLY contain a vote?
Cue 'X voted Y but didn't give a reason!':D


(I think the only objective standard for post lengths is character limits. EvenWordLimitsCanBeWorkedAround.)
True, but this is not Twitter and nobody can be expected to count the characters on their every post.

[Huinesoron]

True, but this is not Twitter and nobody can be expected to count the characters on their every post.

True! Which just means accepting that it won't be objective. :)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Problem: on my computer this post takes up half of the text box and on my phone it it's double the size of the text box.

Oh that's weird! Maybe I was lucky, because they look about the same on mine phone, and my comouter doesn't change the resolution with size. :confused: Perhaps like Kath said, it could be a soft rule rather than a hard rule, and double the box on phones?

Personally I don't think I'm a fan of capping the post count, because I would much rather read 2 pages of banter to a mere few Walls of Text. However, it does throw an interesting twist to the game with post rationing. But I think combining both the post count and the post length cut off would be too much for one game, no? Unless the post count cut off is reasonably high.

[Loslote]

I think we could have everyone figure out what the equivalent to one computer text box is on their phones in the Admin thread before the game starts. I would almost suggest having post volume limits per, say, six hours, otherwise we'll have everyone saving their posts for the end of the Day and no one talking until like two hours before the deadline. But I think I'd agree with G55 and say that capping the post length would be enough for one game. I'm biased, though, I'm one of the people who tends to post a lot. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is all fine and dandy - I suggest (even after we come up with some starting rule about it) we try a "dry run posting" first somehow. Simulated dialogue. I'm sure practical issues will manifest themselves. For instance: quoting. People do it in normal games all the time. How would that relate to the length-limit rule? Is it excluded? Or should it be a game "don't quote anything, just point" (that might have its own funny consequences, but not sure if it is desirable. I can already see Wolves spinning "oh as XY said... y'know... over there...").

But overall I really like the idea. The text post window-sized length, as a guideline but not 100% exact rule, sounds good enough to me, accompanied by some post limit because yes, often the problem isn't so much the length of posts, but the amount. The post limit could be quite generous, but just as a fence against people who would post billion posts per Day if left unchecked.

But like BG said, I am not sure what we would do if somebody brought up accusations against someone who used up all their posts... but perhaps the idea would be that you aren't expected to reach the quota, so most people would use up like 75% of their quota and keep the rest until DL in case something came up.

[Blind Guardian]

Since we're talking, BG, would you be interested in co-modding this with me? You said you'd like to mod, it could be a good way of getting your feet wet


Yes on co mod!!!

Also would we count quoting people as part of our text box? or just link to the post al la

In Lotties post [url link]#22[/url link]...

[Galadriel55]

I'm biased, though, I'm one of the people who tends to post a lot. :p

Same here, I suppose. I revel is silly one liners, amd I kinda enjoy the nonesense banter from others too. I am happy to limit the content posts by size and number and frequency and whatever else, but too strict a rule makes you cut out the fun in case you need those posts for real stuff.

For quotes, I vote that they don't count in your post limit. Linking is an option but it's annoying to do on a computer and super annoying on a phone. Listing post number is also possible, but let's be honest, who is gonna go back and find the post every time to read it? Quoting is so much simpler. However, I agree that some experimentation should take place, quotes included.
---------------------------------
^ The one box boundary on my phone, including Lottie's quote. Happens to fit perfectly with what I was gonna say.

[Nogrod]

I'm quite against any strict restrictions - I'm not against some people going for a super experimental game if they want to - but in general it sounds like a very bad idea.

Like some people have already noticed: situations may change drastically (reveals, sudden bandwagons, someone finds a crucial point...) which requires possibility to react freely. Also the whole feel of the game has lot to do with spontainety, including little banter here and there.

Quoting is also quite crucial to the game-mechanics. If people are forced to quote less to save their post-lengths it will immediately favor the wolves (who are, according to Kuru's latest statistics in the Grimoire, clearly having the upper hand already of late). Add to that a post-count restriction, and the wolves can co-ordinate things nicely especially late in the Day.

Or think about the last minute frenzy when everyone is holding their precious one last post to the very end, looking to see if someone is trying to use the situation to their advantage...

Also, who wants to count the characters in one's posts? So a Word or LibreOffice is required to play so that you can check the number of characters you use?


That said, I do think the walls of text in the first game this summer were quite overwhelming and we all could think twice, when it is truly important to make such huge posts (or quote all the stuff people quote) and when not.

[Inziladun]

RL is not WW-friendly for me just now, but at any rate I don't think I'd be on for a game with strict posting restrictions.

One of the fun aspects of the game for me is the way everyone's free to construct posts however they like, to fit their particular motive. Also, having to pay close attention to the structure of the post itself will just give me something else to worry about, and I find that already sometimes the stress of the game can overwhelm the entertainment.

[Huinesoron]

I actually wonder if this idea would be more fun if it was super-strictly limited. "The size of the box" just feels like it's trying to keep post sizes down, and would therefore favour players like Shasta who tend to post short posts anyway. Something ultra-strict, like "ten words" (or "one word"...), would be part of the gameplay, not a separate restriction.

I've just thought of another possible way to limit post numbers, and keep people from just breaking their posts up: you can post as often as you like, but there have to be at least five (two, ten...) posts between yours. That way everyone can contribute, and fast-paced sections stay fast-paced, but nobody can spam the thread.

(I'd say vote-posts would even more have to be separate in that game, to keep someone locking themselves out of voting because the thread went quiet all of a sudden.)

hS

[Boromir88]

I'm quite against any strict restrictions - I'm not against some people going for a super experimental game if they want to - but in general it sounds like a very bad idea. -Nog

One of the fun aspects of the game for me is the way everyone's free to construct posts however they like, to fit their particular motive. Also, having to pay close attention to the structure of the post itself will just give me something else to worry about, and I find that already sometimes the stress of the game can overwhelm the entertainment. - Inzil

Same. I'd be intrigued by Rune's twitter-inspired idea that he brought up. At least sometimes the thought is appealing when you see blocks and blocks of texts and feel like you've come back to have to read 2 pages of it. I'm not sure how this could be achieved without a character limit though. Then as Inzil mentions, that game with post limits and character limits just wouldn't appeal to me. That's not to say someone couldn't go on and create such a game.
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(Where the comment box cuts off on my laptop)

It just seems like it could be very easily help the wolves (who already have a slight advantage to start) than the village, which would add a wrinkle of unbalance I would not find appealing. I think it was Legate who said when he thinks of new roles or experiments the question is "is this phantom-proof" is a good general guide to follow. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think it was Legate who said when he thinks of new roles or experiments the question is "is this phantom-proof" is a good general guide to follow.
Indeed. But actually, I like Hui's suggestion. There is a distinct chance the WWs could exploit it, but only to a degree.

I've just thought of another possible way to limit post numbers, and keep people from just breaking their posts up: you can post as often as you like, but there have to be at least five (two, ten...) posts between yours. That way everyone can contribute, and fast-paced sections stay fast-paced, but nobody can spam the thread.
That sounds actually pretty good to me!!! And we've had different games like this here in the past when this was used: the "Hurt and Heal" game had similar rule. And that worked pretty nicely. (And yes, posts with votes should be exempt from this rule. But the vote post should maybe have some rule like that it can't contain anything else, or perhaps at most two lines or something. Roughly. Or not. Whichever.)

The only problem could be with people who are posting at other time than others, or are in a completely different timezone. I mean, there's no problem with them to write all their thoughts down and post them all at once, if it's just about that. But imagine a situation where, say, there are ten European players and then Nilp and Lhuna. When it's "European normal time", people keep alternating, posting... then Europeans go to sleep, Nilp post once, Lhuna posts once, and that's the end for the two of them because they don't have other players present to fill the gap between their posts.

Of course, one could make some exceptional rule for some visibly disadvantaged players, but still. Again: should be tested beforehand.

[Galadriel55]

I am not sure if it's really necessary to limit post volume in that way. No one ever spams the thread singlehandedly to such degree (though I admit I have tried :p). However, how about a simple rule that you can have no more than 3 (2? 4?) posts in a row? And an understanding that the post size limit is not there to break up the Wall of Text into 10 small chunks but so that what you say has to be more concise and to the point.

[Loslote]

Maybe the posts have to be separated by x number of other posts OR x length of time OR make a substantially different point than the preceding one?

[Boromir88]

I am not sure if it's really necessary to limit post volume in that way. No one ever spams the thread singlehandedly to such degree (though I admit I have tried :p). However, how about a simple rule that you can have no more than 3 (2? 4?) posts in a row? And an understanding that the post size limit is not there to break up the Wall of Text into 10 small chunks but so that what you say has to be more concise and to the point.

Going to attempt a reply from my cell phone to see where the comment box cuts off...

My reason against this is that it starts restricting strategy and like Inzil, gets me to have to think about more than I already do when I post. My personal title of “laconic” is actually making fun of my style, because I’m not a very concise person. Sometimes I use it to be intentionally confusing, but it’s just my nature when writing any post, not just playing werewolf.

(Cuts off here on my phone)

Anyway, my intention is to say I personally wouldn’t find restricting length and post construction a game idea I’d like to participate in. That’s not to say someone can’t try it for their game and that others won’t be intrigued by it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not sure if it's really necessary to limit post volume in that way. No one ever spams the thread singlehandedly to such degree (though I admit I have tried :p). However, how about a simple rule that you can have no more than 3 (2? 4?) posts in a row? And an understanding that the post size limit is not there to break up the Wall of Text into 10 small chunks but so that what you say has to be more concise and to the point.
This actually does not make much sense. For many people (like myself), limit to "at most two posts in a row" would mean no change whatsoever. The only time I post two in a row is either if I vote, or if I write a long analysis of something and while I'm writing, other posts appear, and I want to react to them as "postscript" to my previous post. Limit to "at most three posts in a row" would basically make me post freely like normally.

So such a rule would only disadvantage people who do what Shasta was doing in the last game and post five short posts in a row instead of one huge chunk as analysis.

Maybe the posts have to be separated by x number of other posts OR x length of time OR make a substantially different point than the preceding one?

That would be fair, but starts to already be horribly complicated. The time thing may be a problem if, say, I'm in a rush and writing on my work break, and I have time NOW but won't have in five minutes. (Granted, the same problem can technically happen with the "number of posts in between"-rule: you'd like to post something and you know you won't be able to within the next 5 hours afterwards, but not enough people have posted yet in-between your posts.)

The "substantially different point than the preceding one" - well, that's awfully vague. Who's to judge? I mean, we are grown-up people, I assume we would trust everyone to police themselves, but I can still theoretically envision a situation where some would feel that post X seems too similar to previous one, despite the author claiming otherwise. Again, we are grown-up people and should be able to deal with it, but I can imagine.

One systematic problem we are running into is this, in my opinion: the rules that are too strict may be really limiting and cause some problems. But rules that work as mere guidelines (like the "substantially different point" one) and are open to more interpretation sort of take away the point of the whole thing that it is a rule and restriction that is meant to make you play differently.

In other words - the notion that posts you make should ideally have "substantially different content" or that you "should not spam too often" is something people should strive for ideally in every game, sort of by the rules of common decorum. So if you enforce them not very strictly, that essentially changes nothing, only adds an extra aspect to bicker about or some people to feel offended because while they took great pains to post different content, they feel like my two posts were too similar and that was unfair.

If the idea is to make a different game, where the point is to make short posts, then yea, let's enforce a rule - generous enough that it does not disadvantage anyone too much, but that if it inconveniences people here and there, as it inevitably will, then simply tough luck, that's part of the format.

But if it's meant to be rules, they should be fairly simple and clear and at the same time strongly enforced.

So I'd say something like "there must be two posts after your last post" and "length of the text box at most, on the phone double the size" would do. (And the second rule is already bordering on not-clear-and-strict-enough, but would work. Making a "every post must have at most thirty words" rule would be better and probably funnier, for a really experimental "twitter" game.)

[Galadriel55]

This actually does not make much sense. For many people (like myself), limit to "at most two posts in a row" would mean no change whatsoever. The only time I post two in a row is either if I vote, or if I write a long analysis of something and while I'm writing, other posts appear, and I want to react to them as "postscript" to my previous post. Limit to "at most three posts in a row" would basically make me post freely like normally.

Sorry, I was thinking along the lines of "if we restrict both post length and post count". Say you write a Wall of Text 10 paragraphs long. You can't post that in one post. The point is for you to get to the point and shorten your analysis, but you really wanna post it. So you split it into 10 separate posts and post them all in a row, to get your Wall of Text in without breaking the twitter limit. That kinda defeats the point.

But again, I think that it's a matter of conscience for each player not to do that, and we shouldn't have to restrict post count for that purpose.


The one thing that brings me stronger in favour of trying a shorter posts game at least once is that in both previous games pretty much every time a Wall of Text appeared I did not read it and skipped straight to its conclusion, if it had one. There is no way on Earth I can keep up with a game full of Walls. If someone posts a Wall, my solution is basically to skip over it, because it gets too much. And that's no way to play properly either. I would love a game without crazy long posts. Making it a Twitter game with more restrictions than just "please no Walls" is an extra twist that has to be gone around. And unlike a limitation on the total post quota or the frequency of posts, this is not a particularly Phantom-exploitable idea.

[Rikae]

Well, I offered to mod the next game, and was thinking late July/early August for the start, but I have to say, I was never really wild about the short posts idea, and even less so if it's just a way to eliminate the long analyses which, to me, are a big part of Barrowdowns WW, even if I'm usually not the worst culprit. For that matter, "double post" restrictions would really cramp my style (I can't seem to help myself!)

The "twitter" game idea might be an interesting experiment if it were played ON twitter, but trying to recreate those conditions here sounds like an un-fun hassle.

An experiment I was really looking forward to trying was the one the dead thread developed in the last game of a Tolkien-quoting "ghost" sent back to represent the dead. That has a lot of potential and helps tie the game back into the forum more, too.

[Loslote]

I agree with Rikae, I think the twitter idea might need more development and maybe an extra gameplay component to make it more fun, rather than being first and foremost a restriction. The Ghost Game sounds like it's closer to being ready to go in July, and it also sounds like a super fun concept for the Downs.

[Kath]

Ooh a ghost game sounds really interesting! What's the idea?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I'm quite against any strict restrictions - I'm not against some people going for a super experimental game if they want to - but in general it sounds like a very bad idea.

Like some people have already noticed: situations may change drastically (reveals, sudden bandwagons, someone finds a crucial point...) which requires possibility to react freely. Also the whole feel of the game has lot to do with spontainety, including little banter here and there.

Quoting is also quite crucial to the game-mechanics. If people are forced to quote less to save their post-lengths it will immediately favor the wolves (who are, according to Kuru's latest statistics in the Grimoire, clearly having the upper hand already of late). Add to that a post-count restriction, and the wolves can co-ordinate things nicely especially late in the Day.

Or think about the last minute frenzy when everyone is holding their precious one last post to the very end, looking to see if someone is trying to use the situation to their advantage...

Also, who wants to count the characters in one's posts? So a Word or LibreOffice is required to play so that you can check the number of characters you use?


That said, I do think the walls of text in the first game this summer were quite overwhelming and we all could think twice, when it is truly important to make such huge posts (or quote all the stuff people quote) and when not.

What Nogrod is saying here is that the game will be different than normal, and change is bad. ;)

Anyways I haven't tried to develop the idea since the end of the game, but I think we are overthinking certain aspects here.

There would definitely need to be a maximum length to the post, but one should not have to diligently count characters. I have sufficient faith in you guys to trust that you would play in the spirit of the game (and the new rules), and if a post or two is a bit over the limit, so what. Of course if there are obvious and repeatedly infractions, then the mods would need to take action.

If we were to put a cap on the number of posts, it could be in place until x hours prior to deadline from whence the cap would be out of effect. Again we could trust each other to stick to the spirit of the game, or we could add some different restrictions such as "no consecutive posts" etc.

In the words of the great Billy Joel "It's always been a matter of trust"

[Blind Guardian]

Ooh a ghost game sounds really interesting! What's the idea?

In the Dead thread last game we talked about how the Dead can come back to life to quote.

If you noticed Boro said:
I am of the House of Felagund. Though my pride has fallen, I will not allow myself to be taken by the likes of you for your pleasure. May my spirit find peace and rest! ++Nilp

Which is a quote from the Silmarillion I believe.

The idea was that the Dead get one quote from any JRRT book per night to say. One Dead comes back to life just to say the quote.

There was talk of limiting the quote to the first sentence of a chapter. The specifics would need to be worked out.

[Huinesoron]

The idea was that the Dead get one quote from any JRRT book per night to say. One Dead comes back to life just to say the quote.

My question/concern for this is: how do you integrate it into the game? Because the Dead don't know anything, so the Living have absolutely no reason to listen to what they say. It's fun for the Dead, but if it's the only thing different about the game, it's a bit weak.

Of course, once the Seer dies the Dead might know something, but that just devolves into attempts to dictate to the Dead precisely what they should say in any given scenario. ("If the Seer has dreamed Huinesoron innocent, and BG as a wolf, quote the first line of chapter 6 of The Hobbit...")

One possibility would be only revealing the deceased's roles in the Dead Thread, but people weren't too keen on that (and it gives the wolves a huge advantage). Another would be to give the first two/three Dead players new powers - perhaps a one-shot Seer, a (one-shot?) 'Nightmare Wolf', and a one-shot vote (ie, that player gets to cast a vote from the DT one Day). That way they would have something to say, but with one-shot powers it wouldn't be clear if they'd used them right away. Also, they might get given to a Wolf, if the village gets lucky Day One or Two. :D

hS

[Pitchwife]

In the game we just played, for my own personal interest, I tried to keep to G55's idea of no more than the box size for posts. I can't say it was a success.
And here I was wondering whether the change in your posting style was perhaps indicative of a special role. :D

I think it was Legate who said when he thinks of new roles or experiments the question is "is this phantom-proof" is a good general guide to follow. :p
Definitely.

Well, I offered to mod the next game, and was thinking late July/early August for the start, but I have to say, I was never really wild about the short posts idea, and even less so if it's just a way to eliminate the long analyses which, to me, are a big part of Barrowdowns WW, even if I'm usually not the worst culprit. For that matter, "double post" restrictions would really cramp my style (I can't seem to help myself!)
I get your points, and I'd definitely be against double post restrictions myself (what do you do when you're online at a time when nobody else is around?). To be sure, counting characters and policing people's posting styles isn't my idea of fun either, and I'd rather have more spontaneity than less -- but you can be spontaneous in a brief post as well as in a long one. Maybe more so sometimes. Think punk rock vs prog rock.
As for the long analyses, yes they're kind of a style element of BD WW, and though I rarely find the time to post them myself I often find them useful (as long as they're not half a page and include the analysed player's shopping and laundry lists with commentaries and footnotes). It's the combination of long posts & lots of posts which I found daunting at times in the last two games -- like, when I finally get to play at about 3 hours to DL after a long day of work, dinner and a modicum of interaction with wife & pets and find 5 pages of thread since Daybreak, and by the time I've digested these there's 2 more, etc. - the Achilles and the turtle phenomenon. Back in the early days of BD WW whole games were played out in the number of pages we nowadays often take for a single Day. But that's more common in larger villages - maybe I should just stick to smaller ones.

There would definitely need to be a maximum length to the post, but one should not have to diligently count characters. I have sufficient faith in you guys to trust that you would play in the spirit of the game (and the new rules), and if a post or two is a bit over the limit, so what. Of course if there are obvious and repeatedly infractions, then the mods would need to take action.
I'Ve been thinking of castigating offenders with links to Ramones songs, as a reminder that everything worthwile can be said in 2 minutes.:p

Anyway, the ghost game idea sounds fun. Limiting it to first sentences might be a bit harsh, but I suppose we'd like to prevent someone just quoting e.g. Kath's signature to indicate she's the last living wolf, or some such. (People with Tolkien signatures watch out!)

[Loslote]

Anyway, the ghost game idea sounds fun. Limiting it to first sentences might be a bit harsh, but I suppose we'd like to prevent someone just quoting e.g. Kath's signature to indicate she's the last living wolf, or some such. (People with Tolkien signatures watch out!)

If we want to make it really phantom-proof, we could even make the Ghost run all their Ghost quotes through the mod to make sure they're not too revealing. But then again, the Dead don't actually know anything. By the end of the second-to-last Day last game, I (a Dead person) would have been chomping at the bit to tell the Living that the wolves were OBVIOUSLY Lommy, Mac, and Kath, and I was totally wrong about 2/3 of those. So even if the Dead are able to very clearly convey their thoughts, there's no guarantee that their thoughts are helpful.

[Kath]

So is the quoting in place of a vote or empowerment of some kind? All they do is quote a Tolkien line and then the Living spend the whole Day wondering what on earth the Dead are on about?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So is the quoting in place of a vote or empowerment of some kind? All they do is quote a Tolkien line and then the Living spend the whole Day wondering what on earth the Dead are on about?

Well there hasn't been any finalised version of what exactly it would mean. We spent a couple of posts discussing it in the Dead Thread, Form being the one who worked on it the most. The original idea was that one of the Dead would always come back as a ghost, but could only speak using lines from the books - then we started thinking about how to make sure they can't just pick up any lines and actually make too clear statements. The idea of first lines of chapters or somesuch came up.

A different derivation of the same is simply sending a "dream message" from the Dead to the Living, but yeah, I think there should be more to the powers the Dead have than just that for it to be relevant.

And at the same time I am also very much against what Hui warned about, that is, doing it so that the Living can't just make the Dead their info-service and do the "if X is a Wolf, post a quote from the first chapter of The Hobbit".

[Galadriel55]

I let my fantasy run away a little bit and envisioned this. Every Night, theDead choose a ghost to return to the living. The next Day the ghost may post Tolkien quotes (to be defined, eg full paragraphs, first sentences, etc) on the Living thread. The ghost is not restricted in how much he posts, but may only post Tolkien. Once the ghost gets to the land of the Living, until he returns to his grave at Night he cannot communicate with the Dead (ie once on the Living thread he cannot look at the Dead Thread, and has to act independently). However, the question is what info the DT would be trying to convey. Maybe indeed the Dead have special powers, like one extra dream per game, or a dream every Night but 25% chance it's incorrect, or some other information the ghost would need to convey. The ghost idea is awesome but needs that extra bit to balance it out, it's the bit that's difficult to figure out.

[Formendacil]

Yeah, the idea that the Ghost could only speak the line of a chapter-opening was an attempt to corral what the Ghost can say into something more cryptic. To sum up the idea of what *I* was thinking about the Ghost:

1. In a Dead Thread game, the Ghost can be the means of the Dead Thread's involvement.

2. Each Day, the Dead Thread votes for one of their own to return and haunt the village.

(3. Perhaps the Ghost has a vote? If so, does the Ghost cast their OWN vote or is it casting a vote the Dead Thread has already chosen?)

4. To keep the Ghost from being too much a straight-up data-channel between the Dead and Living, the idea was to make it that Ghost can only speak cryptically (other than voting, obviously). Some thoughts thrown around included the idea that the Ghost could only post quotes from their Living days--no bolding, no italicising, and I wanted to add "full paragraphs only" so that it wouldn't be immediately apparent why the Ghost had chosen that paragraph (i.e. if there was a nugget of emphasis buried in a paragraph, they wouldn't be able to post just the relevant clause, which would be hardly better than just being able to type what they wanted). The "first line from a Tolkien chapter" was a variant on this theme. I like that it makes things "more Tolkien" than this game sometimes devolves to... but it might be TOO limiting. Some sort of happy medium that ISN'T too much of a burden on the Mod is the idea.

(5. If the Ghost can vote, then perhaps that should be the SOLE purpose of the Ghost: the Dead Thread votes during the NIGHT and whoever the Ghost is makes a single Haunting during the DAY. In this case, maybe a single, cryptic clue would be permitted by the Mod.)

6. I think, if there is to be a Ghost, there should also be a Cobbler, and that the Cobbler's role should NOT be revealed to the Living Village upon Death--or to the Seer. Perhaps it should be revealed to the Dead? Or not?

[Blind Guardian]

The other option would be to allow the rules of the last game to stand while also allowing the Dead to select to say per night. Like Boro did on the last Night. So ++empower and ++quoteVote.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

6. I think, if there is to be a Ghost, there should also be a Cobbler, and that the Cobbler's role should NOT be revealed to the Living Village upon Death--or to the Seer. Perhaps it should be revealed to the Dead? Or not?

This is something that should absolutely hold. And I think it exactly should be that it would NOT be revealed even to the Dead, in order to allow the possibility to send back a Ghost, but lo, it was a Cobbler and made a mess of everything in its final returning grand act.

[Galadriel55]

This is something that should absolutely hold. And I think it exactly should be that it would NOT be revealed even to the Dead, in order to allow the possibility to send back a Ghost, but lo, it was a Cobbler and made a mess of everything in its final returning grand act.

That. ++Reveal the cobbler as an ordo to both Seer and Dead.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That. ++Reveal the cobbler as an ordo to both Seer and Dead.

Not that the probability of it is very high (Cobbler needs to die, not be recognised by the innocent Dead, then needs to be selected by them to return), but already the possibility of the Cobbler being there forces the players to think about it and play around it.

But yes, the more pressing concern is to figure out all the powers of the ghost(s?) and the Dead in the first place.

[Rikae]

Regarding the problem of the living giving the dead a code to use (and yes, I was one of the worst culprits of this in the last game, but I was the cobbler :p):

Could it be as simple as banning the living from giving instructions to the dead on what to post? We've had modfire-enforced bans on posting mod messages or on certain roles revealing in the past. Do folks think it would be possible to do the same with this?

[Rikae]

Patented Rikae double post ...

So here's what I'm tentatively thinking of right now.

- 3 wolves, unless it's a huge village. Perhaps NW role comes into play when two(three) wolves are dead? NW not being a specific wolf, but a collective ability of the dead pack.

- cobbler, only ever revealed as ordo, whether dead or dreamed

- seer (straightforward normal seer)

- ranger (straightforward normal ranger)

- weaver. This was a role in the first game I ever played. It's a bit like a seer, but instead of seeing one players role, they see whether two players have the same alignment (so, for the weaver, cobbler & wolf would come out as "same alignment"). I'm thinking of having this be another role that only becomes active on death, and looks like an ordo to the seer and in their death narration.

- hunter (undecided about logical vs illogical)

So there will be 3 possible unknown roles among the dead.

-------------------------------------------------
Rules

-The dead may talk day and Night

-during the Night, the dead may elect a ghost. They get 3 chances to do this, and cannot choose the same ghost twice. I'm thinking of doing it this way to force the dead to think about these choices rather than sending back the last night-kill every day. To make the choice whether to send a ghost at all democratic, those who want not to could vote ++no ghost.

- the ghost returns to the game thread the next Day. They cannot communicate with the dead while haunting. They may only make 3 posts, which can only be sentences from Tolkien, but they may make these posts at any point during the day, allowing them to respond to new developments (I'm going for maximum frustration for living, dead, and ghost here, because it amuses me :D).
If the first chapter thing is just to avoid pointing to signatures, I think it might be okay to open it up to all quotes, given the last rule on this list. After all, people have always had the ability to hint by alluding to signatures, but they rarely do.

- the dead may also cast a collective vote during the Day (???)
This would also mean the ghost did not get to participate in voting while they were haunting. I kind of like this, since I'd like sending a ghost to be a costly choice the dead will only make if they feel like they have something important to convey, but alternatively, I could let them privately cast a vote to be counted in the dead's election that day, or let them vote on the living thread.

- strict ban on the living giving instructions to the ghost or the dead (aside from the general "Boro is a wolf, vote for him!" type thing directed at everyone). Violators will be yeeted into the void.

[Boromir88]

Yes to not revealing the cobbler if they die.

I think I always err on the side of trying not to restrict content in posts, because I like having as many options on the table as possible. However, I think in this case with the Ghost role, where every day 1 person comes back to the living to pass off cryptic information, Rikae's suggestion makes sense. I think it would be important in having the Ghost role be one where the living players are forbidden to direct the returning Ghost a plan to relay the information.

[Loslote]

I think these rules sound like a fun game, Rikae! I really like the idea of not letting the Living try to dictate to the Dead - I think trying to figure out what the Dead meant after they do something is way more fun than trying to dictate to them ahead of time for both the Living and the Dead anyway. I love the idea of the cobbler not being revealed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Love all this, Rikae! And after thinking about it, the three posts may be very well enough for the Ghost - some people post only as many (not counting maybe some one-liner vote post) even when alive!

Just for clarification, I assume the Ghost can't quote (as in, quote: <somebody's post> /end quote). That would be unfair and would allow them to skirt around the ambiguity (as in, they could quote the post of someone they want to accuse and add to it their own quote about how Wargs attacked the Fellowship, or something.

And the NW would be the first Wolf dead? Or how would it work? I assume that's the third "unknown role" you are referring to? (Aside from the weaver and cobbler.)

[Rikae]

Just for clarification, I assume the Ghost can't quote (as in, quote: <somebody's post> /end quote). That would be unfair and would allow them to skirt around the ambiguity (as in, they could quote the post of someone they want to accuse and add to it their own quote about how Wargs attacked the Fellowship, or something.
Yeah, I'm thinking they can only post their Tolkien sentences (and a vote, if they get to vote).


And the NW would be the first Wolf dead? Or how would it work? I assume that's the third "unknown role" you are referring to? (Aside from the weaver and cobbler.)
Once total wolves-minus-1 are dead, they can send in a NW pick each night as a group the way they'd normally send a kill, of a living player to block.

[Galadriel55]

Just wanna say that 1) I like Rikae's idea about the Weaver, that would give the DT actual information to convey to the LT and therefore a purpose for the Ghost, and 2) If we want a true Twitter game, I will even get Twitter for this purpose.

[Blind Guardian]

Just wanna say that 1) I like Rikae's idea about the Weaver, that would give the DT actual information to convey to the LT and therefore a purpose for the Ghost, and 2) If we want a true Twitter game, I will even get Twitter for this purpose.

My Twitter name is video game related so that no one IRL can find me, but I will totally change it to my Downs name if we play.

And the fire died out?

I've been coming back every day to see what's happening. I just figured that as time got close Rikae would put up a planning thread.

[Rikae]

I just figured that as time got close Rikae would put up a planning thread.

Yeah, several people mentioned wanting a break before the next game so I figured I'd give it some time.

[Rikae]

Discussion thread is up!

[Formendacil]

Okay, there's a little "we're still interested" action on Rikae's CXVI thread, but no sign of Rikae, so I'll post here. What's the state of things? I have motivation and a window of opportunity and I'm not afraid to use either.

From the end of that thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19421), here's a player-list of those expressing interest (very, very tentative):

Formendacil
Boro
Loslote
Sally
BG
Hui
Soriman

That's 7--or 6 and a mod. Bit tight but not QUITE impossible.

From the Facebook "who's interested still?" post I made a month ago, everyone who either "liked" it or commented--question marks heaving stress:

Legate?
Kath?
Greenie?
Pitch?
Lommie?
Eomer?

Throw five more in and that's eleven: doable.

(BTW, here's a much older potential player list from Rikae's CXVI thread:

Loslote
Legate
Boromir88
Blind Guardian
Lalaith
Pitchwife
Sally
Nogrod (?)
Thinlómien
Kath
Huinesoron
A Little Green)

I'm sure if I really dig back, there's a prospective Mod-list somewhere, and I certainly think Rikae should mod if she wants to--but I think it's a better idea to get a game off the ground NOW if people are ready.

So if someone (me, as a placeholder) were to Mod a game starting, say: Monday, April 19th, 2021, who wants in?

[Huinesoron]

I guess I'll say "in" for the 19th April unless you get lots of people who really want to. :)

If it were you modding , would you be using Rikae’s setup, another you have planned, or just a standard template (I'm assuming not a long discussion over what it should be)? In any event I'd like to request that we have a Dead Thread even if it's just observing and doesn't interact with the Game Thread at all - it's fun to bicker along and then discover we were totally wrong about everything even while dead!

(I think this point was generally agreed on, so I don't think it's controversial?)

hS

[Formendacil]

I guess I'll say "in" for the 19th April unless you get lots of people who really want to. :)

If it were you modding , would you be using Rikae’s setup, another you have planned, or just a standard template (I'm assuming not a long discussion over what it should be)? In any event I'd like to request that we have a Dead Thread even if it's just observing and doesn't interact with the Game Thread at all - it's fun to bicker along and then discover we were totally wrong about everything even while dead!

(I think this point was generally agreed on, so I don't think it's controversial?)

hS

I think Dead Threads should be mandatory. :-p This is the Barrow-downs, after all.

I'd like to give "the Ghost" a try in some form, but I am:

A. Thinking of myself as a placeholder name and therefore not too hard about it.

B. It'll depend on the numbers. Though... if it is a SMALL game, (say less than 12ish), it might make for a good test run. I'd say I envision something like:

Six Players
1 Wolf
1 Gifted (ranger? hunter?)
4 Ordos

Ten Players
2 Wolves
1 Cobbler
1 Seer
1 Ghost

Sixteen Players
3 Wolves
1 Cobbler
1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter
1 Ghost

Honestly, the breakdown per tier is very much spur-of-the-moment. I am, besides not being wedded to modding, very open for suggestion/negotiation there, but I think it illustrates the different tiers of size and how that might impact the roles. I think a Ghost should be possible even in a smaller game, but it WOULD make that game very much a test of that role.

[Galadriel55]

I will not even tempt myself into playing. In the next two months I have a Very Big Exam, then time with family where they deserve my full attention, then the start of a new job. Neither time is good for playing in a WW game. However, I will of course read and goof around and make cobbler apparitions. Also, I am very happy to co-mod, or perhaps even mod, depending on the size. I find that modding is a bit like being the apparition, but also being omnipotent, and therefore not very stressful or taxing. I kinda feel bad though, because I feel that I've modded disproportionately too many times for recent games, having dropped out of many. But if, and only if, no one else wants to mod and Form wants to play, I can take over whatever set up is agreed upon and run with it. If it's done before I go see family, you may even get on-time deadline posts.

[A Little Green]

So if someone (me, as a placeholder) were to Mod a game starting, say: Monday, April 19th, 2021, who wants in?Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Form! Count me in please :smokin:

[Loslote]

As long as we start before June, I'm in! Very excited to get in one more game before the start of the summer. :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Looks like with the spring in the air, everything is awakening, including the tombs... Simbelmynë. No, wait...

Anyways, a small game would surely not hurt me. Right? Right?

However, I will of course read and goof around and make cobbler apparitions.
I think we have learned to expect that. A game without Cobbler55 would be somehow, hum hmm, lacking.

Also, I am very happy to co-mod, or perhaps even mod, depending on the size. I find that modding is a bit like being the apparition, but also being omnipotent, and therefore not very stressful or taxing. I kinda feel bad though, because I feel that I've modded disproportionately too many times for recent games, having dropped out of many. But if, and only if, no one else wants to mod and Form wants to play, I can take over whatever set up is agreed upon and run with it. If it's done before I go see family, you may even get on-time deadline posts.

"Modded disproportionately too many times for recent games" - the recent games being several years ago, I don't think that's an issue. I think we have reached the stage that whoever wants to mod should mod. Sure, people who modded less recently should get priority if they desire to mod, but there does not seem to be exactly a queue. At least not yet?

[Huinesoron]

"Modded disproportionately too many times for recent games" - the recent games being several years ago, I don't think that's an issue.

- "Thou didst moderate but ten games past; repent of thine desire for power and dominion!"

- "But that was in 2004."

- "Thy numbers foul have no hold over me, dwimmerlaik!"

;)

hS

[Kuruharan]

I have motivation and a window of opportunity and I'm not afraid to use either.

I cannot play. I wish I could, but neither my personal nor professional life right now will admit to such a possibility.

But I, as usual, cannot rep Form because I've done it too recently (probably last year sometime) and I just had to publically tell him what an uncontrollable fit of laughter I had when I read the above.

I picture him saying this with quite a deranged look on his face, staring down a hostage negotiator.

[Formendacil]

I cannot play. I wish I could, but neither my personal nor professional life right now will admit to such a possibility.

But I, as usual, cannot rep Form because I've done it too recently (probably last year sometime) and I just had to publically tell him what an uncontrollable fit of laughter I had when I read the above.

I picture him saying this with quite a deranged look on his face, staring down a hostage negotiator.

You should never underestimate a deranged man with control of an open window!

We do seem to be few. If we press a reluctant Galadriel to mod for us, we have a confirmed ready-to-play list of:

Formendacil
Huinesoron
Greenie
Loslote
Legate

and... I think?

Soriman
Blind Guardian
Sally

Eight would be manageable in a "1 Gifted, 1 or 2 Wolves" kind of way and I incline to say "let's do it!" but it is only Wednesday and perhaps we shall lure a few more.

[Galadriel55]

We do seem to be few. If we press a reluctant Galadriel to mod for us, we have a confirmed ready-to-play list of:

I fear I would not have to be pressed hard. :D How about I do Deputy Mod until someone shows up to claim their rightful place, and if no one does before the start of the game I'll go on modding.

And as such, I think we need to get consensus on a few points before Monday hits us.

The first is roles and numbers. Formy, I think you are missing Boro from your list, he posted in Rikae's thread. Maybe let's confirm that - Boro, BG, and Soriman - you've all posted on the other thread, could you confirm you still want to play? I trust sally will be there, though I would not yet put bets on her being there quite on D1. :D

With only 9 people, I think 2 baddies is tops. Following "worst case scenario" numbers, 2/9 baddies brings endgame on D3, whereas 3 of them bring it on D2, and that's just too soon. One or two gifteds? If there is only one Gifted, which one? I vote against Hunter, that one just brings the numbers down too much in a single strike for such a small game. Ranger or Seer?

Then, what happens to the dead. A Dead Thread is a must. ^.^ But should they have a role in the game. Are they allowed a vote on the living thread? Do they send a Ghost to haunt the living? And what is their objective in doing so, phrased in such a way that being a dead wolf wouldn't be terrible existence?

Since the games of last summer, I've been mulling over ways to unite the DT in a common cause which lets everyone actively participate on equal footing. What I came up with is this: the Dead hold a grudge at being killed, and take petty revenge by seeking to make as many people as possible join their ranks - ie their goal is to get the Living Thread to reach endgame. That way, its support is always given to the "losing" side, whichever that may be, regardless of the Dead's former roles. However, I'm not sure how that would integrate with the Ghost in practice - what is the Ghost in practice? - and I think the Ghost should see a test run here.

...So, basically, any thoughts on what are the actual rules of the game? Thoughts on the Ghost and DT responsibilities.


And a few minor things that also must be sorted before the start:
Deadline preference? I live in GMT-4. Though in the next 2-3 weeks my schedule is flexible, please be kind and don't ask for 4am local time.
Preference on tied votes? Many people hate the first-to-reach-tie, some hate the last-to-reach-tie, opinions differ on both or none options. Given that this is a small game, would it make more sense to have neither party lynched? Certainly not both. What do you guys think?


That was a much longer post than I intended. But really, I think it's good to figure out what game we're playing before the start date. :D

[Soriman the Whide]

Posting to confirm my interest.
As you all know I'm new here, I've not played a game like this before either however I'll be happy to learn to try get the numbers up.

[Huinesoron]

Preference on tied votes? Many people hate the first-to-reach-tie, some hate the last-to-reach-tie, opinions differ on both or none options. Given that this is a small game, would it make more sense to have neither party lynched? Certainly not both. What do you guys think?

How about 'the Dead Thread breaks ties'? You could make a rule that Dead players cast their own votes, but only for people who already have at least one vote in the game thread. If there's a tie, whichever tied player had the most Dead votes dies. If there's a double tie (including a 'neither player got any votes from the Dead'), nobody is lynched.

Which could even just be a general "the Dead get one collective vote" rule, with the proviso that they can only vote for someone who's already had a vote in the game thread. (Purely because I feel like ties aren't all that common, so it would be a bit weak for the Dead.)

For the Ghost, I still like Rikae's version (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=727747&postcount=5161) (with or without a number-of-posts limit); it's the one that's been most optimised, so to speak. But basically anything that lets the Dead try and affect the Living without being able to do so indiscriminately.

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I also am fine with for example Rikae's version of the ghost, I think it is rather simple way of going about it, and a fun one. Besides, if we "test" this now, we can make any sorts of "fancy" adjustments to it that we like in the future.

Which could even just be a general "the Dead get one collective vote" rule, with the proviso that they can only vote for someone who's already had a vote in the game thread.

That is only a problem because, well, what if half the people vote only around deadline, then many of the Dead may not be able to vote.

Also, it does not eliminate the problem of a tie on Day 1, when there are not yet any Dead to vote in the first place.

I am more of a supporter of the first-to-reach-the-maximum-is-lynched, simply because it forces people to vote earlier, rather than to hold their votes until 23:59:59. But anything goes, we've had games with all possible rules.

[Galadriel55]

My question regarding the Ghost of Rikae's set up is that she also had a special role that was active in Death; her Ghost has information to convey. In this smaller and simpler game, what information can the Ghost offer that the living would want? Is he just conveying the general opinion of the Dead, which might be helpful insight but ultimately is still opinion and not fact?

Ooo, thought. What if the Dead during the Day can vote to find out the identity of one living player? That way, they function as a collective Seer, and the Ghost would travel back to convey that info? There may also be limitations on how many times they are allowed to hunt (eg only 2, or only 3, or not in two consecutive Days), to make people budget that power?

Posting to confirm my interest.
As you all know I'm new here, I've not played a game like this before either however I'll be happy to learn to try get the numbers up.

We're always happy to have new people join, and we were all the new person at one point or other. Welcome to the game! You can read up about the general rules, and let us know if you have questions. If you've ever played Mafia / Werewolf in real life, this is much like it.

[Huinesoron]

My question regarding the Ghost of Rikae's set up is that she also had a special role that was active in Death; her Ghost has information to convey. In this smaller and simpler game, what information can the Ghost offer that the living would want? Is he just conveying the general opinion of the Dead, which might be helpful insight but ultimately is still opinion and not fact?

I seem to recall that one of the last two games, the living basically ignored the Dead entirely. You'd have to weight things relatively heavily to counter that tendency, which... I mean, you're not supposed to want to be killed, so making it so the Dead have loads more information kind of works against that.

But... what if you reveal something about the previous Day's voting each night? One night it could be 'no wolves received votes', the next 'both wolves voted together', the third 'at least one wolf voted early', the fourth 'the Gifted has voted for
a wolf twice so far'. Something like that - the sort of thing people speculate about all through the Day. The Dead would have to decide overNight whether it's a big enough clue to send in the Ghost, and how to convey what random piece of information had been revealed through their communication limits (Tolkien block-quotes with no-one trying to instruct the Ghost, I think Rikae's version was).

What if the Dead during the Day can vote to find out the identity of one living player? That way, they function as a collective Seer, and the Ghost would travel back to convey that info? There may also be limitations on how many times they are allowed to hunt (eg only 2, or only 3, or not in two consecutive Days), to make people budget that power?

It's an interesting idea... it might be fun to combine the budgets, actually: you have three ghosts, but can choose whether each one is a Night Ghost (acts as Seer for the dead) or Day Ghost (visits the Living). With the possibilities of information from dead Gifted and Wolves, it's not quite as obvious as going 'night-night-day' right at the start.

hS

[Galadriel55]

It's an interesting idea... it might be fun to combine the budgets, actually: you have three ghosts, but can choose whether each one is a Night Ghost (acts as Seer for the dead) or Day Ghost (visits the Living). With the possibilities of information from dead Gifted and Wolves, it's not quite as obvious as going 'night-night-day' right at the start.

I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Isn't the Ghost only active during the Day?


But I like your other thoughts. Here's a sketch of the DT's role, up for further feedback and refinement:
During the Day, the Dead cast their votes for a Living player. Whoever gets the most votes at DL gets an extra vote, by the same principles of voting as the Game Thread works. (Should the DT deadline be the same, or DL-2h, or -1h?)
At the start of the Night, the DT gets a snippet of information from me, not too revealing but giving some info about the previous Day, including wolf and gifted activities. As a way to include dead baddies, perhaps in the event there is a dead wolf, I will give them a choice of 2-3 statements, and they get to choose which one gets revealed.
During the Night, the dead get to mull over this info. They also vote for a Ghost or No Ghost.
If a Ghost is chosen, for the duration of the next Day he haunts the Game Thread. During this time he cannot look at the DT or participate in the DT vote. In the GT, he can only speak in Tolkien quotes which must be in full sentences and at least 5 words long. References are appreciated but not required. He is not allowed to quote players, link, emphasize text (eg bold/italics). There is no limit to how many posts he can make that Day, or how many Tolkien quotes he can put in a single post. (Yea or nay? Should he be more restricted? Or test run the liberal option first?) He does not vote on the GT.
The Living cannot give specific instructions to the Ghost, under punishment of Isildur's Curse: they shall be banned from both the Living and the Dead threads. They are allowed to ask the Ghost questions, and of course allowed to discuss the Ghost's statements.


Next up: do you want a Seer or a Ranger or both? If it's just a Ranger, perhaps a flexible one (eg can protect someone for 2 Nights, can protect himself)

[Huinesoron]

I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Isn't the Ghost only active during the Day?

Sorry; I meant that "the Ghost" could be a role used by the DT in one of two ways: either to send in during the Day to talk to the LT, or as a Dead Seer read. In the latter case, there wouldn't be an actual 'Ghost' talking to the Living.

At the start of the Night, the DT gets a snippet of information from me... in the event there is a dead wolf, I will give them a choice of 2-3 statements, and they get to choose which one gets revealed.

Nice development of the idea. So the dead wolf gets to decide what the dead learn? Secretly, or does everyone see their options?

During the Night, the dead get to mull over this info. They also vote for a Ghost or No Ghost.

Do these Night effects also happen on the Night when there's only one dead player? It would be kind of funny for a dead Wolf to come back and just mock the living all day long. :D

If a Ghost is chosen [etc]

I'm kind of inclined to the liberal version, perhaps with the proviso that if it really breaks things, the mod can switch to a limited version for subsequent ghost appearances.

The Living cannot give specific instructions to the Ghost, under punishment of Isildur's Curse: they shall be banned from both the Living and the Dead threads. They are allowed to ask the Ghost questions, and of course allowed to discuss the Ghost's statements.

As long as the mod is fair when it comes to subjective posting (is "long quotes aren't very helpful" an instruction? How about "that wasn't very helpful"?), sure.


Next up: do you want a Seer or a Ranger or both? If it's just a Ranger, perhaps a flexible one (eg can protect someone for 2 Nights, can protect himself)

No preference from my side.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I've set up an Admin Thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=730488#post730488) with a draft of rules and roles. We can continue planning there, to prevent spamming this thread.

[Thinlómien]

Anyone fancy another game? :Merisu: Maybe starting in early June?

Any aspiring mods? I could be talked into it, if no one else wants to, but I think there were several people who wanted to mod earlier...

[Formendacil]

I'm around and game to play--though, this time, I am NOT an aspiring Mod. Though I should be available for Day-ly play, there's a reasonable chance I will have some distractions that prevent me from meeting a hard deadline every 24 hours.

[Morsul the Dark]

I would enjoy another game.

[Loslote]

I'm starting a summer internship in June, ping me when this is getting going and I might be able to manage a game, especially after I get a sense for my schedule. For now put me down as a hard maybe. :Merisu:

[Kath]

I'm always up for a game! Participation would be similar to last time assuming a similar deadline.

[Blind Guardian]

I'll play this time!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would too happily participate in a game. A DL an hour earlier (or later, to completely avoid the tiniest chance of being around and thus solidifying that I won't be around on DL at all) would be an improvement, but then again, even the last game worked out quite well and there is something refreshing about being forced to vote early. It actually makes things simpler, to a degree.

I could also mod if nobody else wanted to, but just like others, I have modded "recently" (meaning, merely several years ago).

[A Little Green]

I might be away for the first week of June, but if we start after that I'd love to play! And see if I can make it through Day 1 this time :D

[Pitchwife]

Me too, me too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I might be away for the first week of June, but if we start after that I'd love to play! And see if I can make it through Day 1 this time :D

Of course. *starts assembling gallows*

Anyways, perhaps we could then aim for sometime after that? The second week of June I have a several-day-long holiday that I do not wish to spend playing Werewolf, but the most important thing is that the majority can agree on some time window. Plus, if there are any more people interested in modding - I think we have several people willing to be the "backup option" (myself included), but perhaps there's been someone eagerly awaiting their turn? We might try also reaching out to Rikae whether they do not want to do the game they planned last year. But if there is anybody else, certainly speak up.

[Boromir88]

I'm good to play a game in June. I'll reach out to Rikae to see if she's still available to mod the game she was planning.

[Blind Guardian]

*knock knock* Is anyone home?

[Blind Guardian]

Alright kiddos. It's been over a year. We have a new series coming out and I'm going though werewolf withdrawals. Let's get this show on the road. Who is up for some WW?

[Inziladun]

I was thinking just recently that it seems a very long time since I last played.

A bit has changed in my life since the Halcyon Days, and I don't know now that I could find time to give it meaningful attention. :(

[Loslote]

I actually would have time this fall to play a game! It's been way too long. :D

[Blind Guardian]

So with Sally of FB and Galadriel in PM that makes 4. I hope more people want to play. 4 is to little :(

[Galadriel55]

So with Sally of FB and Galadriel in PM that makes 4. I hope more people want to play. 4 is to little :(

Sorry to mislead - Galadriel of PM os on call every other night these days and too exhausted to play. But deprnding on when - possibly in the fall, bit I don't have my schedule yet.

[Blind Guardian]

Hm I guess I'm not sure what you mean by fall. My fall typically begins in August since that's when the temperature begins to dip below 100! Are you talking October, November?

That's fine by me. Let me know when and I will work around it.

[Alassë Estel]

I would like to give it a try if there is another game organized in the future.

I have never played before, but I have the general idea from reading the rules and past games. It sounds like a lot of fun!

[Galadriel55]

I would like to give it a try if there is another game organized in the future.

I have never played before, but I have the general idea from reading the rules and past games. It sounds like a lot of fun!

Oooh, welcome! Welcome to a game that is super fun despite being super stressful! ++Alasse!

It's been a while since we played any games. But I might actually be able to join one in the coming months, depending on exact timing, if we get a group together.

[Alassë Estel]

Thank you for the welcome! :)

I'll be ready!