Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Kath]

There, happy now Nogrod? TGWBS is good at maths, make him do nasty calculations and workings out instead of me :D

[Nogrod]

There, happy now Nogrod? TGWBS is good at maths, make him do nasty calculations and workings out instead of me :D
Happy as a man can be... :)

[littlemanpoet]

Just to get it out of the way, and then I'll shut up and let Kath's Game proceed with my quiet: I want to step in line again to mod another Dueling Wizards game. This time at least 20 players, and as soon as I have at least 20, and 2 wizards & 2 sub-mods, off we go. Who's in front of me to mod?

[Cailín]

Oh, I know this one.

*ponders*

I am after Kath, then Gurthang and then Sleepy Ranger.

Anguirel might be somewhere in between, but I'm not 100% sure about that one.

[The Saucepan Man]

I believe that I expressed a wish to mod another game some time back.

[mormegil]

I've considered it but am in no rush to do it.

[Oddwen]

I'd love to mod again - perhaps in July or August.

[the guy who be short]

Whose idea was it to scrap the list? :p

[Nogrod]

Schools are ending in Finland and that keeps me more than busy (and too much away from any computers) for a couple of days. So for Day2 and Day3 I will be posting somewhat less frequently - granted that I'm allowed to... I will check in at possible breaks and try to follow the things as well as I can - toDay I might be able to post something on the early afternoon (RL). But I should have a couple of hours to actively participate before midnight (+3 GMT - meaning a couple of hours before the time I'm sending this post now) on both days.

So I'm not away, but my posting will concentrate to the last hours of the Day.

[littlemanpoet]

Whose idea was it to scrap the list? :p
.... if the mod will allow....

Cailín
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil

Fair enough?

[the guy who be short]

Kath - could you please post lists of living villagers as well as those dead each Day and Night? It makes it that much easier.And what happened to Nilp?

[Thinlómien]

Kath - could you please post lists of living villagers as well as those dead each Day and Night? It makes it that much easier.And what happened to Nilp?Agreed. And we would very much like to know his role as well.

[Kath]

My apologies TGWBS, knew there was something I'd forgotten. I'll edit that in now.

Nilp will be removed from the game either in the lynch or kill narration, and you will find out his role then. I have absolutely no idea why he pulled out, as I have received no more of an explanation than you.

[Mithalwen]

When I signed up for this game, I thought I wouldn't be working this week but I got a lat minute, fairly high stress assignment (month end). Then my best friend's mother sufferred a sub arachnoid haemmorhage and her life hangs in the balance. My priority for what time and thought is not due to those who pay me, is with my friend of 20 years... she was there for me when the tables was turned so... anyway this doesn't prove my guilt or innocence but at least you know the background.

If you happen to be inclined to prayer .... spare one for my friend. Thanks

[Kath]

Hey all. My apologies but the game may start a little late today because I am unlikely to be here at 11. I've PMed Diamond and if she is able I'm hoping she will start the game for me, I'll PM the wolves and ask them to send their kill choice to her as well.

If she isn't able then I'm very sorry, but it should only be a couple of hours delay at the most.

[Kath]

OK, scratch that. I'm here! But the narration will still be late.

Choice to me please wolves!

[Durelin]

Just to let people know, and because I'm annoying like this... I was gone most of today (RL today) because I was taking the SAT (again; and that's a 5 horus standardized test, for those who wouldn't know), and then I had to do some volunteer work for a few hours (longer than I was planning to, actually).

Okay, I'm done with excuses...

[Nogrod]

Sorry to interrupt.

Does anyone know, whether it's the norm to count a cobbler as
a) a villager
b) a wolf
c) not at all
in the final count when deciding whether the wolves have won or not?

So if there are two ordinaries, two wolves, and a cobbler, how it goes with the standard interpretation?

We would be happy to hear the standard rule as we are not sure about it...

[Firefoot]

The cobbler counts as a villager; here's the 'official' description:The Cobbler: This player is on the werewolves team, but is not a werewolf! The cobbler doesn’t know who the werewolves are, they don’t know who s/he is. The game does not end in a situation where #(werewolves+ cobbler) >= #villagers. The cobbler looks like a villager to the seer. The cobbler actually doesn’t mind being lynched in many cases, to protect a werewolf from dying. Hope that clears it up. Probably you already knew most of that, but there it is... :)

[Kath]

So in that case if the Cobbler wanted the wolves to win they would simply have to create a situation in which he/she got lynched.

[Nogrod]

Thanks!

We have now been able to draw our interpretation of the role...

[Durelin]

Will it not get me killed if I pop in to say that I'd love it if my name could get added to the list of those who wish to mod a game? I have been holding off because I wanted to wait until the end of the WW game, but I thought I'd take advantage of the brief 'interruption'... :D

[Anguirel]

So:

Cailin
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
Durelin

[Diamond18]

Cailín
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil


Cailin
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
Durelin

Er? We have two different lists here, people. ;)

I'd just like to say, add to me to the very end of whatever is the correct and current list. With the amount of people on here, it looks like I should put my name up if I want to do my game in the fall like I'd planned.

[Thinlómien]

A suggestion: if there's someone who's okay with modding a junior game and wants to mod sooner, there's only SamwiseGamgee, Glirdy and Valesse in the junior modding waiting list atm.

[Kath]

I think Ang and Durelin go in between Sleepy and Sauce.

[Diamond18]

So....


Cailín
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil
Durelin
Diamond


Aye?

Edit: I moved Durelin, she was the last to speak up of all those people, so....

[Cailín]

Wow, that's quite a long list.

All right, Kath's game is unofficially over, which means that I can accept registration for my game now.

I had not really expected it to be over quite so soon, so I am still working on an outline. Ideas are all ready! However, due to the messiness of real life right now, I won't start the game before Sunday the 10th and possibly even a few days later. This will give some people the time to recover from previous games and since Lommy and Nogrod are already running quite a large game, I don't think sign up will be all that fast.

Expect:

1 - a decided lack of canonicity (not because I lack good will but because I haven't really read the books all that often ;) )
2 - a decided lack of actual village-ness
3 - a dramatic revelation of my personal greatest fear
4 - and -should the amount of players allow it- a return of the Lovers.

More information soon.

(Also, if anyone would volunteer for back-up mod status, I'd appreciate it and would breathe more easily, since my schedule is often quite irregular).

[Durelin]

Lack of canonicity? I'd like to sign up, if I may. :D

[Roa_Aoife]

If I'm done with Lomgrod's game by the time yours starts, then I'd be happy to sign up. However, what exactly do the "Lovers" do?

[The Saucepan Man]

Cailín
Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil
Durelin
DiamondAnyone else think that, subject to timing preferences, priority should be given to those who have not modded already? I am inclined to that view.

Since I will be away for a few days in mid-June, it doesn't look like I'll be able to join your game Cailín. Although I'm thinking that I should probably hang up my werewolfing boots for a while anyway. It's far too time consuming - even when one habitually gets killed off (one way or another) by the second or third day ... :(

[mormegil]

I think I will be taking a break for a while, though this gives Kath the chance of passing me up in the most games played :eek: . The WW weariness was not an excuse but a real malady that occured because Kath's game was too soon after LMP's massive game in which I dedicated too much of myself to recover that quickly.

[Caranlondien]

Cailín... sign me up! :D I simply can't help it...

[Cailín]

Nice to have you aboard (quite literally as you will see) Durelin and Caranlondien.

Saucy, you really disappoint me. :p

You will not believe this but aside from food poisoning and various other horrors, I now sprained my wrist during singing class (apparently, singing pop music is a very dangerous activity not to be taken lightly) so I am done typing for today. Typing one-handed is annoying.

If I miraculously heal overnight (which I fully expect) more info up tomorrow morning.

[Kath]

I'm afraid not morm, though it would have been nice! :D

What with exam pressure at the moment if I did join I'd be even quieter than normal and you wouldn't get a single post that made sense out of me! So my apologies Cailín, but I won't be joining.

[Glirdan]

I am also taking a break for the time being. However, if you do need players, please, don't hesitate (or should that be hesitate :p ) to ask.

[Diamond18]

Put me down as extremely iffy.

I have plans to mod a Lovers eventually, so I think it'd be nice to play in one first! But it all depends on how Lomgrod's game goes for me, and if I'll actually have time. I may be starting a new job soon and... you know how that goes.

[Gurthang]

Well, here's the thing, Cailín. I've (finally) started work for the summer, so my time to be online is now more limited. Like, down to a few hours a day if I don't want to do anything else. And I do actually like to do other things. ;)

Essentially, I might not have the time, or willpower after work, to read everything each day. I will definitely be posting less, and likely I won't come up with any long analysis that I somtimes pull out. Possibly early votes, too, depending on what the timeframe is.

If you say I can still play under those conditions, then I'm all in. It's your call. :D

[Findëasëa]

Cailín, please sign me up. Thanks.

[Holbytlass]

Sign me up. I'd love to play in your game!

[Cailín]

All those who signed up are in! :D

I will definitely wait some days before starting the game, because it seems to be a busy period for everyone. :) Whether those who have limited time available can sign up depends on the amount of players I will eventually be able to recruit. Otherwise: if you want and think you can play, it's completely up to you. Lack of participation will be punished eventually, but I am quite lenient overall.

Furthermore (and this also goes for the PMs I am leaving unanswered or reps I fail to give out), my arm did not yet heal and I'm trying to be careful with it, so yes, that means more delays. I am very sorry everyone! As soon as I can use both hands to type again, you will be the first to know.

Oh, and before I forget, Nogrod has kindly offered to co-mod the game with me, so that position is officially filled.

[Cailín]

Captain Cailín's log, several days before departure:

Crew:

Cailín
Nogrod

Current Passenger List:

Durelin
Caranlondien
Holbytlass
Findëasëa
Lhunardawen

Gurthang -- Plank Operator
Formendacil -- Ne'er-do-well stowaway of snobbish, blue-blooded origins
Nilpaurion Felagund -- lost
Rune Son of Bjarne

Diamond18?
Taliesin?
Roa_Aoife? -- Vulcan science officer
Mormegil?

Time Schedule:

10 PM current London time till 10 PM current London time
OR
8 AM current London time till 8 AM current London time

Current London time is GMT+1

(up to the passengers and especially the crew. Hours could change a little, if necessary)

Roles:

To be announced.

- Three Wolves, One Seer
- Three Wolves, One Seer, One Cobbler, One Hunter, One Ranger
- Four Wolves, A Lover, One Seer

(up to discussion)

Rules:

No double lynchings
No retractable votes (though if a majority wants retractable votes, c'est possible)

Occupations:

Basically anything goes. For my soundness of mind, only one race shall be allowed aboard (can't think of the horrible implications of possible mix-raced Lover couples. Anyway, mental or physical afflictions are of course permittable).

Bon voyage, mes amis!

Olc duit-siu!

[Cailín]

So there. All one-handed. :p

If there are questions / discussions / random accusations, they may now be put into words.

[Roa_Aoife]

I did say I would join if I'm out of Nogrod's game by the time yours starts. But, if Nogrod is co-modding yours, then I assume the game will be over before yours starts. So sign me up as a definite maybe.

For my soundness of mind, only one race shall be allowed aboard (can't think of the horrible implications of possible mix-raced Lover couples. Anyway, mental or physical afflictions are of course permittable).


No hobbit-orc lovin'? How sad!

[Caranlondien]

May I ask if this will be Werewolves at Sea, Werewolves on a Plane, or Werewolves in Space? I'm assuming it's the first one, but you did say it wouldn't be canon... :D

[mormegil]

When exactly is this scheduled to take off? I didn't see a date. Is it when there are sufficient villagers? If you are going to Brazil I may be of assistance but only if there is a bit of a time break.

[Durelin]

No hobbit-orc lovin'? How sad!*tear*

Going back to basics with only the three Wolves and a Seer would be interesting, but all three of those options sound great to me. Though I saw 'four wolves' and my only thought had something to do with mangled remains...

[symestreem]

Having had another recent lapse of sanity, I would be interested in playing, but am leaving town on June 23rd for three days. Do the games usually last that long?

[Kath]

Oh they really do. Even a short one lasts more than a week.

[Durelin]

How long a game last depends on the size of the village, so I guess it's really hard to say.... But normally ways are found to deal with those of us who get eaten by the RL monster. And it's certainly not the end of the world if you do get eaten. Unless it never spits you back out...

Heh, cross-posted with Kath.

[Gurthang]

Cailín, I was actually wanting you to say yea or nea as to me playing. But, if it's up to me, then of course I'm in. :D

Timeframes are not too bad either way, but I'd prefer the 8 AM over 10 PM.

I'd like the middle option when it comes to roles.

And lastly, my occupation: I'll be the Plank Operator*. ;) Meaning I'm the guy that gets to push people off. :D

*I'm assuming that we'll be on a ship. If not, I'll have to change.

[Diamond18]

No hobbit-orc lovin'? How sad!

I am also saddened by this. After all, don't ya think that having a wolf and biped in love is already jumping off the deep end? :p

[Roa_Aoife]

Just one question concerning the lovers- are they chosen at random like the other roles? Because... well.. that could lead to some interesting situations....

[Diamond18]

If you mean same-sex lovers, I do believe that Cailin said that would be a possibility back in the Scenarios thread when she first posted about lovers. What are you thinking now, Cailin?

edit: Here's an idea, randomly pick a wolf to be the wolfish lover and let them pick a "passenger" to be their lover.

[Roa_Aoife]

If you mean same-sex lovers, I do believe that Cailin said that would be a possibility back in the Scenarios thread when she first posted about lovers. What are you thinking now, Cailin?

Well, that had crossed my mind, but I was more thinking of the interesting personalities that could get paired up. Me and you for instance. :eek:

Or... Fea and phantom!

Or... any two from the Duos of Doom thread! *faints from fright*

[Diamond18]

Well, that had crossed my mind, but I was more thinking of the interesting personalities that could get paired up. Me and you for instance. :eek:

Two words: Kath Morm

:eek:

[Roa_Aoife]

Two words: Kath Morm


GAH! I hadn't even thought of a match so... so... of DOOOOOOM! We'd all be dead! There'd be no way to get them!

By the way, I want to be the resident Vulcan science officer- whatever race we are, I've studied vulcan science. I don't even care wheter we're on a space ship, air ship, or ship ship.

[mormegil]

Are we for sure doing the lovers? I'm not entirely sure about how it works and unsure if I'd be interested in that.

Two words: Kath Morm

Flattered to be sure, but we would need to maintain suspicion on each other, otherwise it would be obvious we were on the same team.

[Nogrod]

Flattered to be sure, but we would need to maintain suspicion on each other, otherwise it would be obvious we were on the same team.That would be a real task I suppose? :)

[Oddwen]

If you're picking randomly and are worried about gender, just call 'em Siblings instead of Lovers. Y'know, like Húrin and Húor, Amrod and Amras, Isíldur and Anárion, Eluréd and Elurín, Túrin and Nienor...only slightly less doomed.

Dang, I can't find any famous sisters.

[Nogrod]

Dang, I can't find any famous sisters.With Tolkien, that's no surprise, I guess... :(

[Oddwen]

just call 'em Siblings instead of Lovers.
Ooh - or Twins.

With Tolkien, that's no surprise, I guess... :(
No kidding.

"And Humdrum begat seventeen sons and one daughter..."
"And Lowlifeion begat two sons and one daughter..."
"And Frederickethor begat one daughter only, and cursed his ill luck on his deathbed..."

[Diamond18]

I hate to be all RP picky, but siblings just isn't as fun as lovers. :p Also not as secretive.

[Cailín]

If you mean same-sex lovers, I do believe that Cailin said that would be a possibility back in the Scenarios thread when she first posted about lovers. What are you thinking now, Cailin?

If at all possible, I am doing not doing same sex Lovers, simply because so many prefer the traditional kind. However, that would mean we need more male sign ups and balance out the sexes. If we don't, then I guess that means no Lovers. You are right, siblings are far less intriguing.

About the hobbit-orc love: it will not happen and that's me final word. ;)

Are we for sure doing the lovers? I'm not entirely sure about how it works and unsure if I'd be interested in that.

I will post an updated and complete description of the role soon. But it's definitely not yet certain: it depends on the final passenger list whether it is at all possible and also on the opinion of those who signed up. Personally, I am rather partial to the Lovers, but I can work without them.

Oh, and I am indeed waiting a little while before starting this game. I did not set a date yet, but assume it will take at least four more days.

May I ask if this will be Werewolves at Sea, Werewolves on a Plane, or Werewolves in Space? I'm assuming it's the first one, but you did say it wouldn't be canon...

"Werewolves at Sea" would be the accurate description. Hy Brazil or Ui Breasail (for those who don't know) is a mythical island out of Celtic Mythology. Don't worry, it's still not canon. :p

Just one question concerning the lovers- are they chosen at random like the other roles? Because... well.. that could lead to some interesting situations....

They are basically picked at random: I'll solely be manipulating gender. So Roa_Aoife and Diamond, you can breathe easily. Mormegil and Kath... well if Kath does sign up, I'm not saying it cannot happen.

Another thing: as you are passengers, not crew, you don't have to be sailors or anything to do with water at all. You're allowed to if that is what you want, but you may be anything.

Passenger list is being updated.

[Formendacil]

As long as people don't take umbrage at me being quieter than my historical norm has been, I'm in.

Actually, no... I'm in whether they like it or not. The worst that can happen is they lynch me and I don't have to worry about not participating enough.

Occupations? What are these occupations of which you speak? I'm a ne'er-do-well stowaway of snobbish, blue-blooded origins. :p

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Didn't expect me, did ya? ;)

Well, whatever's up is over, and now I can join.

I'll be lost. I mean, that'll be my description. :D

[Kath]

Two words: Kath Morm

Flattered to be sure, but we would need to maintain suspicion on each other, otherwise it would be obvious we were on the same team.
Oh come now morm. Even when we are on the same team we try to get the other lynched anyway :rolleyes:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I would love to join a WW game, it has been too long. . . If there is room of course.

I am pretty sure I will have time on my hands, but I only returned home to Denmark a few hours ago so I dont have a full view of what I have to do the next weeks. (Save waching the World Cup of course)

[Lhunardawen]

Argh Rune...you just had to go and appear, did you? Just when I was prepared to say goodbye to Werewolf?

*grabs horns in both hands and writhes as if in terrible pain...wait, I'm no Mister Tumnus*

Sigh...I'm in. Occupation will come once my brain reads this post.

[Cailín]

Welcome back, Rune. What a great timing! And thanks for recruiting Lhuna for me. ;)

[Kath]

Argh, can't believe I'm doing this :rolleyes:

A promise is a promise Cailín! I'm in.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Instead of being lost, I shall be a renowned Jinchuuriki hunter.

(For those of you who don't know Naruto, or know it but haven't read the original Japanese manga, this will not make sense. Well, just expect more bilingualism from me. :D :p :rolleyes: )

[Thinlómien]

When are you starting? I'm tempted to join, but I fear I can't unless the game starts quite soon.

[JennyHallu]

Can I play?

I'll be the feared Dread Pirate Roberta.

[Lalaith]

As a football widow, I need something to keep me out of even worse mischief. I'll come aboard too, please. Is football widow too anachronistic for you Cailín? If so, I'll be a merry one...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Lhuna is going to play! I cannot express my joy. . .

I do still not know what to be maybe Erik of Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_VII_of_Denmark)

it is better to be a pirate chieftain on Gotland than being the king of Norway.

I really dont know

[Cailín]

I saw the doctor today and my arm is a bit worse than I expected.

I am really dreadfully sorry, but I am just not up to (nor allowed to) typing out long posts and spending more time behind the computer than absolutely necessary (which is still too horrific to fully comprehend for my geeky side). Fortunately, I do have medication and should see significant progress within a week.

It's so frustrating with all you cool people willing and wanting to sign up. :D

So it seems there are two options:

1) I could give it another week and start the game then. This may mean that some people currently on the passenger list will not be able to play.

2) Someone else should take my place to mod WW XXIII. I'd be unhappy, but I completely understand (especially with the long waiting-to-mod list) people cannot wait for my recovery.

What do you think? I'm really unsure what to do. I don't want to waste my chance to mod a good game by being unable to type more than a few sentences each day.

Argh.

[Holbytlass]

I'm very sorry to hear about your prolonged injury.
However it works out don't rob yourself (or us ;) ) by having to edit your narration. I always look forward to what others have come up with.

I suppose the decision will also be based on if the next mod is ready. If that person is not ready we'd have to wait anyway therefore we can wait for Cailin, but if that person is ready then we should carry on and Cailin can mod the next game.

[Valier]

I believe the next mod in line is Gurthang. Cailin if you still want to mod this one I can help you out in someways if you need it.

[Durelin]

You should have the opportunity to mod this interesting take on WW (maritime WW, that is), so perhaps your game should be put on hold until you can do so. Further games can be played, but whenever your ready to take on yours again, you can do so (obviously not in the middle of a game, of course...you know what I mean).

Unless you'd rather pass on this idea. I just know that, t'were me, I'd want to hold onto it once I had all the plans...

But as Holby pointed out, it does depend on who's ready, I suppose.

[mormegil]

If it's only one week I say wait. It would actually give me the break I need. Besides how many have signed up?

[Anguirel]

Partly out of self-interest (to increase the chances of me being able to play) I'd be positively happy if you waited.

[Diamond18]

Actually, waiting a week sounds grand to me. There's no telling how long Lomgrod's game will last, and it would even be nice to have a break between the two.

[Gurthang]

Well, being the next on the list, I would actually prefer to wait, too. I have some things I would like to do before my own game. I would have done some of them already, but it hasn't worked out. So I also would be fine with just waiting for your arm to get better, Cailín.

Still, if it comes down to it, I suppose I could get most of the stuff done tonight. So if you guys want me to, I can probably be ready in a couple days. Although, I think most people are agreeing that waiting for Cailín is okay. Sounds good to me... more planning time. :D

Well, planning when I'm not playing, anyway. ;)

Cailín, how long did the doctor think it will take for your arm to get up to typing health?

[Thinlómien]

If Gurth doesn't one to mod the next, could Sleepy (the next one on the list) do it?

I think it might be very unfair for Gurth and Sleepy's probably not prepared. So maybe that's a very bad idea. Just wanted to say it aloud.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If sleepy is ready to start right away, I think we should let him mod the next game. If that is not the case then I dont mind waiting, at all.

[Cailín]

I see opinions vary. ;) Thanks for the best wishes, and Valier, I do very much appreciate your offer to help, but if I wait, I might not need it!

Cailín, how long did the doctor think it will take for your arm to get up to typing health?

If I behave, it should be a whole lot better within a week. That is, if it's indeed the kind of injury the doctor assumes it is.

I actually decided that -if we will wait- I will either start Night 1 on the evening of Monday the 19th or the morning after, being my birthday.

[Lalaith]

Poor old girl, what rotten luck.
Still, it could have been worse, just imagine if it had happened while you were in the middle of modding a game....
Anyway, I'm happy to wait although it just means I'll be spending more money (I already bought a garden shed and a bathroom floor today.... :smokin: )

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, most of us have to wait for the end of Lomgrod's game anyways, especially Thin and Nogrod... :D

How about this- we wait until that game is over, and then see what's what. It could end up taking another four or five days in real time as it is.

[Márcolië Lamen]

I've missed werewolf not being here, and now that school and everything which is taking up enough time to stop me from playing is over, I'd be interested in playing if there's still room.

[The Saucepan Man]

Commiserations, Cailín. I hope that the doctor gives you the all clear soon.

All this talk of medical consultations before assessing whether you can play puts me in mind of a certain England player and his metatarsal ... :D

I will be back from my trip on the evening of 19 June, so if the game starts on 20 June, then you can count me in. We share a birthday, Cailín. :)

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

If there's room, put me down as a maybe. I will be missing the first weekend in July, but if that isn't an issue (I'll leave that one up to the mod), count me in.

Now that school is finally over, I'll have more time on my hands (or so the theory goes, anyhow).

I'm looking forward to putting in some good solid werewolf hours this summer! :)

[Mithalwen]

Poor old girl, what rotten luck.
Still, it could have been worse, just imagine if it had happened while you were in the middle of modding a game....



Not Cailin would have had to take dictation ;) Hope you recover quickly...

[Kath]

Cailin starting next week would be far better for me so I say wait! That way I might be able to participate properly :D

[Diamond18]

Speaking of Not-Cailín, is he going to play? What better first game than the one your sis in moderating, no?

Hmmm, well, if we're waiting a week, I am confident enough that I'll be able to play to choose a vocation. I am gnawing my ankle off over jealously that Jenny got to the Dread Pirate Roberta first, of course. Can I be Weslamond, the Dread Pirate Roberta's protégé?

[Anguirel]

A vision on Inigo di Anguirel floats before my eyes...

[Formendacil]

Speaking of Not-Cailín, is he going to play? What better first game than the one your sis in moderating, no?

Actually, looking at Lhuna in Nilp's game, that might be an unfair DISadvantage.

[Cailín]

Did anyone ask Sleepy?

Well, I think we shall be starting on the 19th then! (with a Night phase). I am actually doing somewhat better already, so I'm quite confident I'll be up to it.

I will update the Player List tonight. If you are unable to play because of the later starting date, please let me know.

Di, to answer your question, my brother (non-Cailín, now known as Taliesin) is indeed playing but it takes him a little long to officially sign up. Holidays are making him lazy :rolleyes:

Thanks all for your well wishes. :)

I will be back from my trip on the evening of 19 June, so if the game starts on 20 June, then you can count me in. We share a birthday, Cailín.

I guess the delay was good for something then. No wonder I'm always forced to trust you. It's in the stars! ;) Um, yeah.

[Thinlómien]

Okay, if you're starting so late, I can't unfortunately join the game.

I hope you guys have a good game! :)

[Cailín]

Sorry you will have to miss it, Lommy! :(

---

Captain Cailín's log

Crew:

Cailín
Nogrod

Current Passenger List:

Durelin
Caranlondien - ships's bartender
Holbytlass
Findëasëa
Lhunardawen - seasick reluctant traveler
Kath
JennyHallu - Dread Pirate Roberta
Lalaith - Football Widow
Diamond18 - Weslamond, the Dread Pirate Roberta's protégé
Marcolië Lamen

Gurthang -- Plank Operator
Formendacil -- Ne'er-do-well stowaway of snobbish, blue-blooded origins
Nilpaurion Felagund -- renowned Jinchuuriki hunter
Rune Son of Bjarne
Mormegil - the vocal nitpick who can find fault in anything
Taliesin
Saucepan Man - Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Potboiler
Sir Anguirel Spens

Roa_Aoife? -- Vulcan science officer
Azaelia?

Scheduled date of departure:

19th of June, 10 PM
20th of June, 8 AM

Roles:

Four Wolves, A Lover, One Seer, Hunter and Ranger as Shiriffs

Rules:

No double lynchings
Retractable votes or not?

--

A few things: please specify whether you'd prefer the 8AM or 10PM cycle. All times are current London time (i.e. GMT+1). Also, I'll leave it up to you all to decide whether we have retractables or no.

I am going to be extremely sexist here and say sign up is closed for all Downs girls, except the maybes (a definite decision would be appreciated)! I'm sorry, but if the list gets severely out of balance, there can be no traditional Lovers game. If any more guys (Ang, dear?) could sign up, it would be great.

Comments and questions on the roles are welcome and will be answered with considerable delay of course.

If you're on the list and wish to cancel your journey, it's still possible. Except for the men. I'll personally force them aboard. ;)

[Anguirel]

I'm in. I'll be Sir Anguirel Spens, sent at the bidding of the King of Scots to find the King of Norroway and bestow his daughter in marriage...

(It beat Inigo di Anguirel. Just.)

[Lalaith]

*tsk* Call yourself a Dutchwoman, Cailin? Don't let a little thing like gender imbalance stop you...I thought you lot pioneered same-sex marriages....

[Cailín]

*tsk* Call yourself a Dutchwoman, Cailin? Don't let a little thing like gender imbalance stop you...I thought you lot pioneered same-sex marriages....

Believe me, when it comes to that I am completely Dutch. I grew up in an Amsterdam suburb, you know.

But I know some of the Downers (actually, pretty much all of them) aren't and I'm trying to be politically correct in a conversative way. :)

Thanks for joining, Ang!

[Anguirel]

New Werewolf Rules

PASS THE JOINT

Randomly determined player forbidden to make any kind of sense for one Day. Partaker changes every day.

EUTHANASIA

Any hardened players from Werewolf 1 must be killed as quickly as possible because "it's the kindest thing for them".

EDIT: By the way, some of my best friends-and my step-grandmother-are Dutch.

So that means I can indulge in all the immature stereotyping that I like with complete impunity! Nyah nyah!

[Cailín]

:p

I could come up with a few more, but I fear my country is becoming too X-rated for the Downs. You don't *want* to know what they're trying to legalise now.

But honestly, Anguirel, I don't think we'd need such rules. People rarely make sense anyway and seasoned players are almost always killed off immediately. ;)

[Lalaith]

Well as a decadent Londoner I think Dutch Werewolf Rules sound rather amusing - but fair enough, we must abide with the moral majority...

EDIT: I'd particularly wish to introduce stringent Euthanasia legislation for kilt-wearers. But as he's not even playing, as yet...

[Kath]

I'll go for the 10pm slot please. I don't wish to spend my holidays waking up at 8!

Sorry you can't join us Lommy :(

[Formendacil]

The "Michiel Adriaan Joosten" in me is amused by the Dutch Discussion (seriously, Ang, that first, random, rule would be hilarious... I'm seriously for it). The very conservative North American is pleased to see Cailín taking a moderate approach to things.

And the voter in me has to say:

++ 10 pm

[Holbytlass]

Either date is fine for me, I'd prefer the 10pm time. I'm the whale hunter.
The very conservative North American is pleased to see Cailín taking a moderate approach to things.
I agree, afterall, even if we are not biologically decended-our country's ancestors were rather prudish and it has stuck for the most part. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I missed the lovers-could someone pm me or link to the posts that explain it please.

[Lalaith]

An academic question (it's of course entirely up to Cailin how she runs her game)
WW involves lying to our friends and killing them. It also involves reading sometimes extremely graphic descriptions of cannibalistic violence (how graphic depends on the mod, but I've read stuff on here that I would call pretty immoderate, gore-wise) So what is the issue with same-sex Lovers, purely for convenience because there are too many female players?

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, I'm in. But I probably won't be able to log in until 20 June. Presumably, since the game starts with a Night phase, that won't be a problem.

I'm looking to scale down my level of participation, but I say that every time ... :rolleyes:

Happy to go Dutch. Happy, on the other hand, to respect the wishes of the majority.

No issue with either start time. In either event, I am unlikely to be around at the close of the day ...

... which means:

- - Retractable Votes

... after my recent experience of their potential consequences. I prefer it anyway when the vote is cast in stone when made.

I shall be Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Potboiler. Naval commander, retired. Taking the voyage for a constitutional, after a nasty bout of gout, brought on by excessive port consumption.

[JennyHallu]

++10 PM

Because 8 AM London time is a truly horrific hour in the US. East Coast, anyway.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

*sigh* As expected.

But that won't let me be silenced!

++8 hours after the changing of the day in London

Add seven hours, and that's 3pm here. Perfect!

[mormegil]

++8AM

It would allow me to me more active near the end as 10PM is right at the end of my work day and it gets very difficult to spend the better part of my work day trying to be active and maintain some level of productivity.

I'll be the vocal nitpick who can find fault in anything...wait isn't that normal? :rolleyes:

[Formendacil]

An academic question (it's of course entirely up to Cailin how she runs her game)
WW involves lying to our friends and killing them. It also involves reading sometimes extremely graphic descriptions of cannibalistic violence (how graphic depends on the mod, but I've read stuff on here that I would call pretty immoderate, gore-wise) So what is the issue with same-sex Lovers, purely for convenience because there are too many female players?

As far as moral issues go... I've not got a HUGE problem- though it DOES come perilous close to condoning it... though one could say that about the deaths and lying as well.

No, the big issue for me would be that I ended up one of the Lovers, I'd not have any fun with it. :p

Oh, and despite not making a huge issue of it, I definitely want to be counted as opposed to it.

EDIT:

Morm? You? Nitpick?

Didn't I just see "Sauruman" (or was it "Sauraman"?) in a post of yours very recently? Some thread about Radagast the Brown...

~Revenge is a dish best served cold~

[mormegil]

As far as moral issues go... I've not got a HUGE problem- though it DOES come perilous close to condoning it... though one could say that about the deaths and lying as well.

No, the big issue for me would be that I ended up one of the Lovers, I'd not have any fun with it. :p

Oh, and despite not making a huge issue of it, I definitely want to be counted as opposed to it.

EDIT:

Morm? You? Nitpick?

Didn't I just see "Sauruman" (or was it "Sauraman"?) in a post of yours very recently? Some thread about Radagast the Brown...

~Revenge is a dish best served cold~

No it was Saurman a mere typo and I'm not sure what the revenge is for but meh.

However I fully agree with you about the lovers issue, I simply would not have any enjoyment out of it and I do not condone it at all.

Yes I'm conservative.

[Firefoot]

Can I still sign up? I haven't been sure about how soon Lommy's/Nogrod's game would be ending and have been putting off signing up, but with this later start date all should be good. I've been wanting to play in a village with lovers and was disappointed to have missed the last one.

++10 PM

Since 8 AM is about 2:00 in the morning where I live, if I'm not mistaken... sorry, I don't stay up that long, not even for you guys. :p If we do go with that, my votes would be roughly 4 hours early. Which, I suppose, isn't so bad, compared to what I've gone through before, and nighttime is more flexible than dealing with school hours.

I don't like the idea of same-sex lovers.

Extremely interesting rules, Ang. :D I guess I'd have the misfortune of being one of those euthanized players, though...

[Caranlondien]

I suppose I'm voting

++10pm

and

--Retractable Votes

As for an occupation, I'll be the ship's bartender.

[Márcolië Lamen]

As for times I'd work with either, because I'll stay up until 3 AM in order to play, but 10 PM would be easier than 8 AM, for me.
So I guess I'd vote
++10 PM, but if it comes down to making it harder for many others I'd rather have it be 8 AM and have more active people than 10 PM and less, because I'd be able to do either.


--Retractable Voting

[Gurthang]

Well, 10PM would probably be better for me, although I am thinking my time spent here will be somewhat less than normal anyway.

I've never played with retractable votes, so I'm game for that.

++Retractable Votes

As far as same-sex lovers: I'm undecided. I am (being yet another conservative North American) against the idea in real life. But on the other hand, it is just a game, so I don't think it'd be too big a deal. That is, as long as Cailín doesn't make any overblown, highly-detailed, highly-graphic, R-rated same-sex lover narrations. :p If that happened, I'd be forced to shudder and look away until the scene passed. ;) :D

[Diamond18]

On the matter of same-sex lovers (is this even an option or are we talking about this while Cailín is rolling her eyes? oh well)

I was giving this some thought earlier when thinking up my own variation on the Lovers, and I decided that when it came time for recruitment I would say that it's possible though not guarunteed that one or more of my Lover Duos would be of the same sex. I was going to say that if anyone objected to being paired as a Lover with a member of the same sex, they had to PM me with their opinion, and not voice it on the game thread OR I WOULD BE MOST DISPLEASED!!! :mad:

The idea behind this is that, first and foremost, it prevents people from being able to quickily and easily narrow down who can and cannot be Lovers. Allowing players to privately PM the Mod is sort of like Dueling Wizards in reverse. Instead of private volunteering to be a Wizard, private un-volunteering to be a same-sex Lover.

And, as Gurthang points out, it's not like the mod is going to be writing steamy erotica anyway. The most we can expect is tears over the corpse and matching graves to go with those embroided towels.

But, you all had to go blasting your opinions all over the place without asking MY OPiNION FIRST AND I AM MOST DISPLEASED!!! :mad: :p

On other matters:

Deadline, whatever.

No retractables. It just means that if you aren't around at the deadline, your vote doesn't count. That's pretty much how I see it. *shrug*

[Diamond18]

EDIT: I'd particularly wish to introduce stringent Euthanasia legislation for kilt-wearers. But as he's not even playing, as yet...

Heh. I suppose I might as well admit that I PM'ed a certain Downer who fits that description with a "nudge nudge we're on a ship, ooh pirates" sort of message. He seems to be ignoring me, though. :D

[Lhunardawen]

++10 PM because I'm used to being in the weird time zone. Besides, I'm still in my last class for the day on 8 AM (which is 3 PM here, thanks Nilp).

Also, --retractable votes.

And no same-sex Lovers!

As for my occupation, I shall be a seasick reluctant traveler.


Heh. I suppose I might as well admit that I PM'ed a certain Downer who fits that description with a "nudge nudge we're on a ship, ooh pirates" sort of message. He seems to be ignoring me, though. :D
Indeed? Let me give that a try... :D

[Cailín]

Aww, Di, I'm sorry. But I think most of us know (indeed - I knew beforehand almost exactly who'd protest against the idea of same-sex Lovers) our fellow Downers too well to not be able to guess.

I am rolling my eyes. We all agree different sex Lovers are cool. Some of us are opposed to the other kind of pairing. Then the choice is easily made - in my opinion. :)

Firefoot - since we are not having the same-sex Lovers, I will be forced to put you on the maybe list. The game is already unbalanced in favour of the women, so we need some male sign ups first.

Please continue the voting!

[Taliesin]

Well, since I'm already on the list of players I won't be asking if there's place for me but just confirming that I will be playing.

I just have to think of a job thingie.. ;)

Oh and 10 PM would work perfectly for me, asking me to get up at 8 AM during my holidays.. well my sis knows that won't happen :p .

And

--Retractable Votes .

[The Saucepan Man]

Taliesin, I don't know where you're based, but you do realise that it's 10pm UK time (currently GMT+1).

It has occured to me that I will be able to stick around much closer to the deadline if it's 10pm rather than 8am. So ...

++ 10pm

I am conservative too, by the way, which means that I hold true to traditional Tory libertarian values.

So, if I were feeling mischievous, I would be tempted to ask why those who feel that they would have no fun with a same-sex lover role are perfectly capable of having fun as a bloodthirsty werewolf ...

But I'm not, so I won't. :p :D

[JennyHallu]

Sauce...Taliesin is the famed Not-Cailin. He's based where Cailin is based.

[The Saucepan Man]

Sauce...Taliesin is the famed Not-Cailin. He's based where Cailin is based.Doh! I knew that. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Taliesin, HONK! :p ;)

[Diamond18]

Aww, Di, I'm sorry. But I think most of us know (indeed - I knew beforehand almost exactly who'd protest against the idea of same-sex Lovers) our fellow Downers too well to not be able to guess.

Yeah, probably. I do prefer straight Lovers myself, from the RP and narrative aspects, I just think it's rather a bit of a disadvantage to both the Lovers and the Wolves -- so long as the Village knows there's no chance of it being otherwise. But here I am thinking like a Wolf/Lover when I am bound by fate to be an innocent of the ordinary persuasion. So, okay, no same-sex Lovers, it'll give those nasty wolves an easier time to hide!


Firefoot - since we are not having the same-sex Lovers, I will be forced to put you on the maybe list. The game is already unbalanced in favour of the women, so we need some male sign ups first.

Maybe you should join Lhuna and me in the Eomer-pestering. :D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

*wipes tear*

I feel so desired, even if it's only to see me hang. Ok, I'm in. ;)

[JennyHallu]

I think they should be long-lost Twins or something rather than Lovers. Think of the fun to be had with the narrations!

[Diamond18]

*wipes tear*

I feel so desired, even if it's only to see me hang. Ok, I'm in. ;)

Yay! I know who I'm voting for Day 1! *does a little dance*

[Mithalwen]

I am conservative too, by the way, which means that I hold true to traditional Tory libertarian values.

So, if I were feeling mischievous, I would be tempted to ask why those who feel that they would have no fun with a same-sex lover role are perfectly capable of having fun as a bloodthirsty werewolf ...



Or indeed seemingly have no problem with the possibility of a married downer being the lover of someone who is not their spouse... :rolleyes:

[Lalaith]

I know, these wild crazy Yanks, if they're not guzzling away at each other's bloodied corpses they're committing shameless adultery, makes me feel like Mary Whitehouse*, I tell you....;)

*Translator's note, UK equivalent of Jerry Falwell...

[The Saucepan Man]

Or indeed seemingly have no problem with the possibility of a married downer being the lover of someone who is not their spouse... Indeed. And no one seemed to have any qualms over me committing virtual bigamy in the Duelling Wizards game either. :eek: :D

[Caranlondien]

As one of the apparently few non-conservative North Americans, I have nothing against Werewolf with same-sex lovers. But as this is rather a hot-button issue (well, I don't know about the rest of the world, but here it is, at least), I find Cailín's ruling quite sensible.

Though I did find Lalaith's comment funny :D
I know, these wild crazy Yanks, if they're not guzzling away at each other's bloodied corpses they're committing shameless adultery

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Not a big issue here. If anything people think that it's only natural that same sex marriages should be allowed.

I am pro, but don't really care. . .

[Mithalwen]

I find it both ironic (I live in a country where same sex unions are legal but sexual discrimination isn't) and a dangerous threat to the divine right of moderators. Moderators should be free to choose the game format. Players are free to join or not. The tail should not wag the dog .... yes I am a liberal-tyrant...... :p

[Roa_Aoife]

Sauce...Taliesin is the famed Not-Cailin. He's based where Cailin is based.

*gasp!* Not- Cailin? Not-Cailin! You're back! YAY!!!!!!!! *glomp* I'm calling you Not-Cailin forever! Or NC for short. You're not 17 are you?


Wow, I make one itsy bitsy comment about some of the funny situations randomly picked lovers could create, and look what happens! From my personal perspective, I'm morally against it. (RIGHT WING NUT, OVER HERE) however, from a gaming perspective (and a realistic perspective) we should allow it. If the lover's are picked randomly, then we won't be able to narrow things down. Besides, there' no garruntee that if they're picked randomly then they will be the same sex. So if we want a good game then they ought to be random.

Also ++10 pm

++ limited retractables

[Lhunardawen]

Yay! I know who I'm voting for Day 1! *does a little dance*
Was about to say that myself... *evil grin* Ah well. Nice to see you here, big bro. ;)

Hmm...if we can't get any more male players, then I'm fine with same sex "Lovers." Just please call them anything but Lovers, please?

Welcome to Werewolf, Taliesin! Funny you didn't choose to call yourself Not-Cailin...'cause it seems that's what people will call you even with your name. :D

[Anguirel]

Now, now. Don't make him feel so overshadowed...

We don't call Fea "Not-Keeper of Dol Guldur", do we? Not-Cailin may yet fade out...

[Diamond18]

Not-Nilp, Not-Aiwendil... the possibilities are endless...

[Mithalwen]

But it is a compliment really so smooth was the takeover that "I can't believe it's not Cailin" might have been closer to the mark..... :D

[Kath]

But it is a compliment really so smooth was the takeover that "I can't believe it's not Cailin" might have been closer to the mark.....
Agreed, he's as good as she is. I couldn't believe both of them suspected me :rolleyes:

[Gurthang]

Okay, I'm completely out of the loop. Somebody please clue me into the whole Not-Cailín thing. :confused:

[Nogrod]

Somebody please clue me into the whole Not-Cailín thing. :confused:He's Cailín's brother who took the place of Cailín in a WW-game just some time ago as she had to be away for two Days (or something like that) - and he played really well! We just started to call him non/not-Cailín in that game, and it seems to have sticked...

So welcome Taliesin! Nice to see you here as yourself!

[Durelin]

This whole opinions thing about the same-sex lovers confuses me. Please don't hate me, but it's a little much to bring up any personal opinions over a game.

Anyway.

I can't really vote for the time because either way it isn't good for me, so I'll go with what's good for the majority.

And...

--Retractable Votes

Much more fun and doomsday like that way. *rubs hands together and giggles with glee*

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't care about the time since I never know when I am up anyway, I was thinking about hating Durelin for a second, but then decidet that I could not be botherd.


I have already said I am pro the same sex thing, but I dont really care. . .

the only thing left for me is to find an occupation and do this

--Retractable Votes


Edit: I was not serious about considering hating Durelin, it takes a whole lot more for me to hate people. (to who ever that thought otherwise)

There was not even anything in Durelins post that could get me the slightest annoyed/angry what ever. If people were to say "please don't hate me" in a conversation, it is very likely that I would say more or less the same thing as I wrote just before. It is the way I am, but I will try to remember putting in a smily the next time or not write it at all.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Won't you be a Jounin instructor, for li'l old me? *bambi eyes* It would be hard to be the only high-level ninja (and Sharingan user) aboard.

And just imagine the fight scenes we could come up with on DAY 1 . . . Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu!

:rolleyes: Oh, brother. Please throw me overboard.

[Durelin]

I was actually considering such options, Nilp... :D

And don't worry about it, Rune...I'm not overly concerned with who hates me and doesn't, anyway. :p

I like smilies, though. If you can't tell...

[Holbytlass]

Please, PLEASE can someone point to where or explain what the lovers role is. I can't find it- and it being a game I don't really care what the genders are, gives added mystery to not being narrowed down. As long as there aren't any major slobery-fest scenes being written *I hate Harlequin!*

++retractable votes

[mormegil]

Holby,

I haven't played in one, as there has only been one so far, but what I understand of it is this:

1. You will have your normal 3 wolves
2. You will have your normal gifteds.
3. The major difference is that one of the wolves and one ordo (not gifted) are lovers. They have an ill-fated love and realize that their only way of truly making their love real is by killing off all villagers and wolves. The two can talk and the wolf can reveal anything and everything to the lover that he/she wishes. If one dies the other dies of grief, or so the last game went I believe.

Hope that sums it up well enough.

[Diamond18]

Morm, has it, except that there are 4 wolves in a Lovers' game. Or at least, there were in Nilp's -- two of each gender. In my view, this was major disadvantage to the wolves, because at the end they knew that the last wolf had to be a male (seeing as how two females wolves and one male wolf was already dead).

[mormegil]

Morm, has it, except that there are 4 wolves in a Lovers' game. Or at least, there were in Nilp's -- two of each gender. In my view, this was major disadvantage to the wolves, because at the end they knew that the last wolf had to be a male (seeing as how two females wolves and one male wolf was already dead).

Agreed if we are doing the lovers WW, which sound okay to me but not great, I think the genders of the 4 wolves should be random and then pick the one lover wolf and then the oppostie gender lover.

[Formendacil]

Morm, has it, except that there are 4 wolves in a Lovers' game. Or at least, there were in Nilp's -- two of each gender. In my view, this was major disadvantage to the wolves, because at the end they knew that the last wolf had to be a male (seeing as how two females wolves and one male wolf was already dead).

Well, I think Nilp had four wolves more to balance his Seeriffs than his lovers... but a balance may still be needed.

Agreed about the random genders for wolves- Nilp had balanced genders and it killed the wolves, what was left after the Seeriffs. The only good thing was that he didn't let the village know the genders were balanced...

*a still sulking XIX Wolf*

[Lhunardawen]

Well, I think Nilp had four wolves more to balance his Seeriffs than his lovers... but a balance may still be needed.

Agreed about the random genders for wolves- Nilp had balanced genders and it killed the wolves, what was left after the Seeriffs. The only good thing was that he didn't let the village know the genders were balanced...

*a still sulking XIX Wolf*
Heh. It's more the double lynchings that got you then, big bro. :p

And actually, I think the four wolves was for hiding the Lover-wolf, and the Seeriffs to balance the four wolves.

But yes...I do recall that the wolves *ehem* had to consider gender in their choices for Night kills, which made it a lot trickier. There were even suggestions of killing/lynching all...males, was it? Hoom hoom.

I guess I can keep the conservative side of me quiet for a bit and agree with same-sex, uh, relationships. Or you could do like Nilp, Cailin, and not tell us what you've decided, but that probably won't keep us from speculating and plotting gender-related stuff during the game.

[Cailín]

Wow, internet is back.

Thanks for joining, Eomer, but who could resist Di, Lhuna and me simultaneously? ;)

Captain Cailín's log

Crew:

Cailín
Nogrod

Current Passenger List:

Durelin
Caranlondien - ships's bartender
Holbytlass
Findëasëa
Lhunardawen - seasick reluctant traveler
Kath
JennyHallu - Dread Pirate Roberta
Lalaith - Football Widow
Diamond18 - Weslamond, the Dread Pirate Roberta's protégé
Marcolië Lamen

Gurthang -- Plank Operator
Formendacil -- Ne'er-do-well stowaway of snobbish, blue-blooded origins
Nilpaurion Felagund -- renowned Jinchuuriki hunter
Rune Son of Bjarne
Mormegil - the vocal nitpick who can find fault in anything
Taliesin
Saucepan Man - Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Potboiler
Sir Anguirel Spens
Eomer of the Rohirrim

Roa_Aoife? -- Vulcan science officer
Azaelia?

Scheduled date of departure:

19th of June, 10 PM

Roles:

Four Wolves, A Lover, One Seer, Hunter and Ranger as Shiriffs

Rules:

No double lynchings
No retractable votes

--

We currently have nine males and ten females aboard, which is pretty good. Could the maybes please let me know as soon as possible whether they are able to play? If they do, I shall try to recruit more male-Downers before Monday.

We will start on the nineteenth of June with a Night phase. Roles will go out prior to the official start of the game. I'm a bit thrown by the huge discussion concerning the same sex Lovers. The conservatives among you will be happy to hear the Lovers will stay as they are. I don't want to see anyone unhappy or uncomfortable, I will not use the Twins idea, so that's the final word. I'm happy to see you can be flexible, but I am not asking you to be this time.

That may make the job of the Lovers even harder or nearly impossible. But that's life for Romeo and Juliet, no?

P.S. why is everyone asking me not to write sappy and graphic love scenes? Do I seem like someone who would? I think you are all extremely prejudiced. :p

P.P.S. Holby - for an extensive description of the Lovers, please see this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=435115&postcount=40) and all following posts. Sorry I did not answer your question sooner: with limited typing skills, I hoped someone else would.

[Firefoot]

Could the maybes please let me know as soon as possible whether they are able to play? If they do, I shall try to recruit more male-Downers before Monday. I would still like to play if possible. :)

[Holbytlass]

Thanks Morm and Cailin for the help. I'm glad to see that you are feeling better, Cailin. It had been missed-no worries- I'm the whale hunter.

[JennyHallu]

Can I call you Ishmael?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

No man, Cailín, no man... ;)

Can I be the slavedriver? And can Rune and Kath be the slaves? :p

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If I am to be a slave; can I then be a crazy one, with an obsesion of cheese ?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Indeed, Rune; it shall be the lack of cheese onboard which makes you crazy. Excellent, I have one slave to drive.

And I am all for romantic death scenes. After all, what could be more romantic than the high seas?

[Mithalwen]

High Cs....... if I mod another game maybe I shall abandon Midsomer Mawlin for the opera.....

[Lalaith]

ooo yes, Tosca would be good...

[Mithalwen]

I think it might work.. instead of roles people would have to supply a voice range ..but would everyone assume the baritones were wolves.... Handel has a couple of tenor villains but they aren't nearly as bad as they should be ........

[JennyHallu]

Oh cool...I'm that rare true soprano, so that could make for an interesting death. If I died. Which I don't like doing.

[Anguirel]

Tenor villains? One word: Rigoletto.

Signed,

The Baritone Birdcatcher

[the guy who be short]

Apparently you lot are homophobic so I'm being dragged in against my better judgement. I'm in, Cailín. :D (Who cares about Psych coursework, eh?)

I should warn you I have college, and also I'm going to be watching all England and Switzerland matches, plus any other good ones that might get it the way. Expect me to be a bit quiet due to these factors.

[Glirdan]

Well, Cailin, it seems you now have enough. However, I'm willing to join for Firefoot's sake of playing. So, I'll play so you can let Firefoot play, if you want us to that is. ;) However, I'm telling everyone now that I won't be able to post much because I'm into my exams starting next Tuesday so I'll be studying like mad for the next little while if I do play. And if we are playing, then I shall let you choose my occupation.

[Firefoot]

Thanks, Glirdan. :D

[the guy who be short]

As for my profession... I'll be Friedrich Engels.

What?

[Cailín]

Thank you, guys. That's very good of you. :)

Glirdan, TGWBS and Firefoot (by special request) are in. Roa - I also consider you in, since you have been posting here quite regularly, so let me know if you are not.

Zali - I think - is out.

Let's hope this game can end before I leave for London. It's grown rather errr... unexpectedly large!

I'll update everything tomorrow.

We now have 23 passengers. More than enough, I should say. :D

[Diamond18]

Apparently you lot are homophobic so I'm being dragged in against my better judgement.

Aha. It would indeed be ironic if you ended up being the male half of the Lovers duo, no? :rolleyes: But thanks for being such a good sport and joining up. :D

So, the start time is 10 PM. Dutch time? Or....?

[Gurthang]

Well, at least I'm not the only one who might be limited in talkitiveness... okay, I'm not sure that was really a word.

Anyway, it looks like Day 1 might not span 4 pages like it usually does. Let's hope not... although it might not matter, as I think Eomer has a substantial bandwagon already. :rolleyes: ;)

Cailín, to clarify the time for me, could you make a post and in it tell how many hours until the time of day that it is until the 'deadline'? That way I can look at the time of your post and figure it out from there.

[Márcolië Lamen]

Actually, I just found out I can't play this game, vacation is sooner than I thought it was going to be and I don't want to risk leaving in the middle of a game.

So I'm out and Roa can take my place. I don't think it'd overlap much, but I don't want to worry about it, especially when there's other people who want to play.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Let me make it clear that I didn't tell anyone I had two male and two female werewolves! That wasn't your downfall!

As for same-sex Lovers . . . well, I did mine my way because I already had the Lovers pre-arranged. Since in this game I'm sure Cailín hasn't done that *coughspawnisnotplayingsulk* then I'm sure anything goes . . .

. . . so long as Aimé gets lynched DAY 1. :D

[Cailín]

Passenger List:

Durelin
Caranlondien -- ships's bartender
Holbytlass -- whale hunter
Findëasëa
Lhunardawen -- seasick reluctant traveler
Kath
JennyHallu -- Dread Pirate Roberta
Lalaith -- Football Widow
Diamond18 -- Weslamond, the Dread Pirate Roberta's protégé
Firefoot

Gurthang -- Plank Operator
Formendacil -- Ne'er-do-well stowaway of snobbish, blue-blooded origins
Nilpaurion Felagund -- renowned Jinchuuriki hunter
Rune Son of Bjarne -- crazy slave, with an obsession for cheese
Mormegil -- the vocal nitpick who can find fault in anything
Taliesin
Saucepan Man -- Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Potboiler
Sir Anguirel Spens
Eomer of the Rohirrim -- slavedriver
Glirdan
the guy who be short -- Friedrich Engels

Roa_Aoife -- Vulcan science officer?

Please confirm whether you'll be able to play, Roa. :)

[Holbytlass]

Yes, I admit it. I am homophobic.
I fear evenly distributed milkfat and words that look the same but don't mean the same*!

Can I call you Ishmael?
What?! That pennyless drifter! Can't you see the crazed look in me eye?


I will definitely not play in Mithalwen's opera game ;) . I'd be thrown in the pit for being monotone.





*homogenize, homonym (I'm a little scared of homophnes, too)

[Kath]

Can I be the slavedriver? And can Rune and Kath be the slaves? :p
Sure I'll be a slave. I'm sure I can think up some reason to revolt :D

There you go Cailin that can be my occupation - plotting slave.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

This looks like it's going to be SO much fun...

But there's an unfortunately tacked onto this. I've just found out that I'm going to be gone for the end of June, starting on the 26th. Because of this, I think it's hardly fair to my fellow players for me to participate.

So I think I'm going to have to withdraw myself from the game...which I see our Mod has already done... :(

I hope I get the chance to play in the next Lovers game that rolls around... and in the next WW game that rolls around as well.

Cheers, all...and have fun! I'll be reading along, for as long as I can...It's the next-best thing to playing.

[Glirdan]

Wait! I've come up with an occupation with the aid of Macbeth as well as The Tempest (thank you Shakespear!! :D ). I want to be....a drunken porter! :D

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Sure I'll be a slave. I'm sure I can think up some reason to revolt :D


If nothing else you can revolt to get away from me and the stinking old roquefort in my pocket.

[the guy who be short]

Sure I'll be a slave. I'm sure I can think up some reason to revoltI'm Friedrich Engels. What more reason do you need?

[Durelin]

Okay, okay...I'll be an eye-borrowing Jounin instructor... :D

[mormegil]

Cailin you said roles will be given out prior to the commencement but did not specify the time. Any ideas as to when?

[Cailín]

Cailin you said roles will be given out prior to the commencement but did not specify the time. Any ideas as to when?

When I return from college this afternoon. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time. :)

I just decided to wait a little bit longer in the hopes that I'd get a definite reply from Roa by then.

[Firefoot]

I'll be a wandering traveller with a dog that dislikes pirates. :p

[Roa_Aoife]

I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for disappearing everyone- life came around and reared it's ugly head. I'll definitely be in this game, if Cailin will still have me.

Again, I'm really sorry. I wasn't planning on being gone so long.

[Diamond18]

Firstly, a hap-happy birthday to our Captain and Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Potboiler! (aka Cailín & SpM) :)

Secondly, I just wanted to warn everyone that I will probably be posting considerably less this game as it coincedes with a very busy work week (I am starting a second job this week). I'll do my best to be active but I doubt I'll have time for my usual flood posting and lengthly analysis. *sheds a tear*

[Kath]

Indeed happy birthday you two! Why don't we have a birthday wishes thread?

Today and tomorrow will be times of limited participation for me due to the lovely exams I have :rolleyes: After that I only have one a day and should be able to get more involved.

[Firefoot]

Birthday wishes thirded. :)

[Nogrod]

I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for disappearing everyone- life came around and reared it's ugly head. I'll definitely be in this game, if Cailin will still have me.
Again, I'm really sorry. I wasn't planning on being gone so long.Nice to hear you are back! Unfortunately the game has just started...

Maybe we'll both get into the next Junior-game? I'd like to meet you at a level ground this time... I haven't forgotten your idea of us two being the wolves for once. We would probably reveal each other on Day1 and die consequently... :D

[Kath]

Psst! Out of game comment here but just in case anyones cares, the final narration from my game is now up. My apologies that it took so long to get up, exams and illness you know - bleurgh.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I will not be able to post in thelast 12 hours of Day 3, as I have to do some voulenter work, so that I may go to a festival for free. I only got this information yesterday.

I will be online in the start of the day and then again around 9 am. GMT

I am verry sorry about this.

[the guy who be short]

I have to do some voulenter work, so that I may go to a festival for free.So, not really volunteer work then? :p

I'd like to apologise for my absence yesterday. NTL, my internet provider, broke down about about 5 hours before the deadline, when I traditionally come online. I did not get my internet connection back until 1.5 hours before the deadline, which was half an hour into Switzerland vs. South Korea, so, of course, there was no chance of my coming online. :D

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

So, not really volunteer work then? :p


No; not really, but that is what they call it. . .

[Cailín]

Bonjour mes petites!

In celebration of my 21st birthday, I have a wannabe Spanish sangria BBQ bikini party tonight. By the time Day 3 starts, I will hopefully be too drunk to provide you with another brilliant narrative. I should be conscious enough to announce this Night's kill and start the Day, but the narration will have to wait till tomorrow.

Just so you know. :)

I will also take this opportunity to warn you that Day 3 may be extended just a little bit over the deadline, depending on the outcome of Portugal - Holland tomorrow. I could either be too depressed or too excited. It will not be more than half an hour, though, I assure you. Well, hopefully.

Au revoir!

[Findëasëa]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their birthday wishes, and to apologize for my lack of participation. My older sister came to visit for the weekend, and I have been very busy, I will probability not get back until just before the deadline.

[Cailín]

Today´s narration is now up. :)

I very much apologise for the delay in writing Jenny and Formy´s death scene. I´ve just been too busy / hazy to catch up. Hopefully, I will be able to do so tomorrow.

That's all, really.

[Cailín]

Ai, I am sorry people, the final narration is not yet done. Yes, I know, I am a terrible, neglectful moddess. In my defense: it's currently 50 degrees Celcius in my room (I measured it) and I want the ending to be as close to perfect as I can get it.

It will be up soon, I promise (and of course, the narration of Formendacil's and JennyHallu's death, who have every right to feel slighted and annoyed - though let it be known that it was not done to spite them).

Thanks for being so patient with me! ;)

[Gurthang]

Ai, I am sorry people, the final narration is not yet done. Yes, I know, I am a terrible, neglectful moddess. In my defense: it's currently 50 degrees Celcius in my room (I measured it) and I want the ending to be as close to perfect as I can get it.

It will be up soon, I promise (and of course, the narration of Formendacil's and JennyHallu's death, who have every right to feel slighted and annoyed - though let it be known that it was not done to spite them).

Thanks for being so patient with me! ;)
Hey, take as long as you need. I still need to do quite a bit of prep work before I'm ready anyway.

[JennyHallu]

Who is the next WW mod?

[Valier]

Up coming Mods

Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil
Durelin
Diamond

[Sleepy Ranger]

Gurthang sent me a PM and asked me if I could mod before him, I've told him I can though the game won't start till 15th. If everyone is fine with that then I'll be modding the next game otherwise Gurthang said he could probably manage to do it.

Regards,
Sleepy :)

[Anguirel]

I should probably point out that the way Fate has asserted herself, I am unlikely to be able to mod my second Heroes vs Wolves game for a Long Time. I therefore grant other Would-Be Mods free passage to leapfrog over me, with the proviso that, should I turn up Prodigal Son style in, say, September whining to be allowed to mod a game, you will be patient with me...

[Nogrod]

There seems to be a long enough que for me to join it... :)

So put me on the wanna-be mod-line too.

[Gurthang]

Yes, thank you Sleepy. I was thinking about what all my game would entail, and then it occured to me that I was going to be gone for the next two weekends. (not this coming one, but the next two.) I figured it'd be better to push it back so that I can actually be here. And I haven't done any of the preparing I really want to do.

So, yeah, I still do want to mod, and will plan on doing it right after Sleepy is done. :D

[Sleepy Ranger]

Righty-o, just in case you wanted to know you can now sign up for the next game which shall be known as... Tol-In-Gauroth XXIV: Battle Of The Band[wagon]s

Ahem, details and other yadda yadda shall be up eventually, probably tomorrow though since I'm kind of tired.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Props to the Panman for making that thread. I agree with him wholeheartedly and remember a while back when I tried to make a similar suggestion people were pretty quick to attack me which led to me pretty much giving up since the games were no fun anymore... but nevermind, now that its been made official hopefully it'll be taken into practice. :)

Also note, I have something a bit special/weird/new planned for my game but I need a sub-mod so if anybody is interested get in touch with me ASAP.

[Roa_Aoife]

Saucie's new rules beg a few questions.

What do we deem crossing the line? Where is the line? Does this mean we can't point out where things went wrong? Is all critical rhetoric banned, or only that which is designed to be insulting?

I am aware that many people misunderstand my attempts to be helpful as insult. I've always been of the view that if something doesn't go well, wether it is a game or anything else, then it is in everyone's best interest to figure why it didn't go so well. Are we not supposed to do that? Is the post discussion now going to be reserved for half-hearted compliments and rosy talk? Am I not supposed to say what I think? I've never insisted that my opinion is fact, but I do expect that if someone is going to disagree with me that they at least come up with a good reason why.

I'd also like to point out that many people who are so insulted over post-game discussion are the very ones who toss out "stupid," "foolish," and other such insults in game. So, it's okay to be rude and insulting during the game where everyone's trying to have fun, but after the game is over, we can't even say, "We didn't do well this game, and I think it was because...?" Am I to be banned from stating my opinion because some people have their panties in a bunch and can't handle it?

I thought the great thing about an online community is that we are free to state our opnion with in reasonable bounds. I had thought I did stay in bounds. In fact, I dare anyone to find me explicitly throwing an insult at someone. You won't. I have never called anyone here stupid because I don't believe it to be the case. Some people just have a tendency to over-react and read into what's being said when you really shouldn't.

In werewolf, when people over-react to an accusation, it's usually taken as a sign of guilt. It's basic psychology, really. Maybe those who are feeling so insulted that someone would dare insinuate that they didn't do so well have a guilty conscience.

EDIT: Before anyone starts freaking out and thinking that the thread will get closed for this, Saucepan Man told me to post my responses here. He thinks actually discussing the problem may help us find the best possible solution. What a novel concept. :rolleyes:

[Sleepy Ranger]

I suggest we let the mod of that game decide. If the mod thinks its in limit then it is, if the mod thinks its getting out of hand it is.

[mormegil]

*sigh*

It's slightly upsetting to see so many people getting over heated. I think the point that is attempting to be made is that we all have different playing styles and all have been used effectively at one point or another. I've been in 20 something games and have seen quiet wolves win and vocal wolves claiming to be wolves win. I've seen quiet villagers end up being great seers and vocal seers being killed by their hunters ;) and vocal seers making a great game. I've seen ordo's play the whole range and contribute in one game and not another. The point is that everybody contributes what they can when they can. I've personally used quietness during a game as a cause of suspicion, however I generally make it well known that I don't hold well with overly quiet villagers they are more than welcome to play and add a great dynamic to the game.

I think crossing the line is when we point fingers at particular people or styles for loosing the game. After so many games I'm tired of being known everytime for the same thing so I try different styles, some work and some don't, but I, or anybody else, should not be told that it cost us the game because of the way I played. We all try and we all succeed and fail at one point.

What do we deem crossing the line? Where is the line? Does this mean we can't point out where things went wrong?

Perfect example from the game in question would be Formendacil. Did he loose the ordo's the game? Heaven's no. He was killed the first night because he was forced to proclaim himself. It was a huge detriment to loose our seer the first night and certainly contributed to our loss but was it Formendacil's fault? NO! Was it the innocents fault? No, they found him legitimately suspicious and decided to lynch him. During game play I am very vocal and forward about things like this attempted lynching being silly but afterwards I don't think finger pointing is required or acceptable. Why was Formen almost lynched because he has choosen a playing style of hating DAY 1's and sticking to it. I've never held to that style myself and somethings I do bother Formendacil but we get along and don't critize each other. I think we could say something like "It was rather difficult to win after having lost our seer on night one and having only one known innocent to go on"

I've rambled a bit and I'm sorry but it was in haste and with the best intentions.

[Kath]

This is all a little disturbing, I think I've only ever seen an argument on this scale here once before, and it wasn't any fun then either.

Perhaps the issue is not so much what is being said but how it is being said. Though I wasn't involved in Valesse's game I did catch a little of the post-game discussion where all this started. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and to express it, that's freedom of speech and shouldn't be frowned upon. However, some people take easy offence, or take things very personally, and that should be kept in mind. Rather than trying to assess the game in terms of what went wrong and having a negative view, we could try to assess it in terms of how to improve the things that were detrimental to the game. So on the subject of quiet villagers, those with less time than others or those that play quietly as a tactic shouldn't be derided for it, but perhaps encouraged to post even if what they say isn't going to be 15 paragraphs.

Also, the issues depend on what side you're on. The wolves in a game with quiet villagers may be playing tactically, deliberately killing off the loudmouths in order to make the village easy to sway later.

I'm aware that this probably isn't making much sense. It's hard to put what seems so simple in the mind into words on a screen. The fact that we are engaged in conversation where we can't see the others face or hear the tone of voice causes problems, because things meant as simple comments can be taken as insults.

Perhaps general comments on the game could remain in the thread, but comments particular to a person could be kept to PM? It might lessen the tension a little.

[Nogrod]

Perhaps the issue is not so much what is being said but how it is being said.

Secondly, it may be a language issue, but expressing disapproval of a particular playing style suggests that it is somehow "wrong" or "bad" on an objective basis. Fine if you subjectively dislike a particular playing style, just like Form dislikes Day 1s. We can all have different opinions about that. But there is no "approved" or "unapproved" playing style. All are fine, provided that the minimum commitment requirements are met.I have expressed my frustration over my own linguistical shortcomings already earlier, but Spm's example seems to me a telling one. I really had no idea about these underlying meanings behind the word 'disapprove' - or that level of difference between disliking something.

So once again, sorry if I have offended someone, but as that example quite beautifully shows, it's more often than not unintentional from my part.

Still I don't think we (the ordos) played a good game back there in the last one, but that's another matter...

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't believe anyone started pointing fingers at particular people during the post game discussion. No one blamed Form speciffically for the loss, though some comments were made about him not helping himself very much.

I believe the village as a whole was accused of not playing well. To be certain, quiet players, though they bug me, aren't a huge problem normally. And I do respect the tactic if it can be pulled off well by a wolf. (I hold great respect for Naria's abilties, for example.) The problem that was expressed in this particular village was that everyone was quiet, not just the usually quiet people. This fact was expounded upon seperately by several different people. Most them only made a statement once before the other players started taking offense. Naturally, this caused backlash in the people trying to find a solution, and before long all sorts of insults were being thrown about, most of them actually coming from the other villagers, not the ones who supposedly started the whole thing.

It's quite simple really. Those people who keep saying that it's just a game and we shouldn't take it so seriously are the first ones to take comments out of hand and get insulted. If you really don't take it so seriously, then why get so offended?

How is a comment that, "The whole village was too quiet and we lost the game because of it," trying to dictate what people can and cannot do in a game when, "You're opinions are rude and you can't say them," isn't?

[Sleepy Ranger]

Uh... just a suggestion, might be a bit extreme but I believe it would get the job done. If anyone seems to start getting out of hand, despite warnings from the game mod, the BW should be notified and the member in question should be given a suspension ranging anywhere from a day to a week depending on how bad it was. It may sound harsh but it'll keep people in check.

[Roa_Aoife]

Uh... just a suggestion, might be a bit extreme but I believe it would get the job done. If anyone seems to start getting out of hand, despite warnings from the game mod, the BW should be notified and the member in question should be given a suspension ranging anywhere from a day to a week depending on how bad it was. It may sound harsh but it'll keep people in check.

Then no one will say anything because they're afraid of suspension. You can't just stop people from speaking their opinions. We (Americans, at least) fight wars over that sort of thing. It opens us up for personal politics and figurative witch hunts.

Not to mention, it only covers half the problem, (more than half, in my opinion) which excludes the people who take comments out of hand and get insulted far too easily.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Its not a direct suspension... they would be asked to tone down a bit first. I'm all for freedom of speech but there is such a thing as order as well. If we just let everyone run rampant it would lead to quite a mess. Theres times when even the people with the best of self-restraint lose a hold of themselves.

Flaming is against the rules and if anything (even if its in game) begins to come close to that I believe it should lead to a suspension regardless of whatever. However, what do I know? I haven't been following anything thats been happening for a while. What we have to identify is what is flaming and what is someone getting ahead of themselves. I am all for freedom of expression, as you should know by now Roa, though I do believe you shouldn't let it go to the point where you're at each others throats, someone has to intervene at that point.

I'm not saying that someone be suspended if they just begin arguing but only if they begin making direct insults or if they pass snide comments, something of that sort.

As for people who get insulted easily... well uh... therapy is all I can suggest. :/

[Roa_Aoife]

I see. I didn't understand fully the first time. Thank you for clarifying.

I still say it only covers half the problem, and it still opens us up for personal politics, but I understand what you're trying to say now. Perhaps we should hold off such extreme measures until we have some truly extreme situations, which I don't believe we have had yet.

[Formendacil]

Then no one will say anything because they're afraid of suspension. You can't just stop people from speaking their opinions. We (Americans, at least) fight wars over that sort of thing. It opens us up for personal politics and figurative witch hunts.

Not to mention, it only covers half the problem, (more than half, in my opinion) which excludes the people who take comments out of hand and get insulted far too easily.

To quote another forum, on which I'm a moderator, and on which we've had a similar problem...

You have no First Amendment rights here. There is no Constitution here other than what the Admins and Moderators say.

That said, I believe the major issue is not so much WHAT has been said, as HOW it has been said. Nogrod has admitted to being guilty of this, but I would say that it is not just him.

We have to remember that, this being an online forum, the only impression we can give people is through the words that we choose to use. People cannot get a feel for our looks, our tone, our intensity, or anything- just the bare words. As a result, the choice of words is far more important than it is face to face, since it is not corroborated with visuals.

With no offence intended by saying so, you, Roa, are one of the worse offenders here. You are supremely self-confidant, and highly opinionated. Your choice of words tends to come across as very high-handed. Whether or not you intend to insult people, the result seems in general to be that you get people's ire up. Your speeches tend to sound like you treat yourself and your way as best- the implication being that everyone else is worse and would do well to be the same as you.

And you seem to be blissfully unaware of the effect your words are having. They say "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", but this is patently untrue, and "the pen is mightier than the sword" is a good deal more truthful. You come across, Roa, as completely unapologetic for any insult you may have caused- intended or not.

It's not what's being said, but HOW it's being said.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Well said, I agree with you quite whole-heartedly Formendacil. Roa does come across as offensive/hypocritical at times but then again I'm quite sure we all do since its quite easy to read things the wrong way as has been highlighted by Forme. Personally I don't think theres anyway to help the people who are offended easily, perhaps an apology would help settle things. Thats all that really can be done...

And why wait for the event till we take the precaution? Prevention is better than cure. If we place a rule in place now then it would avoid any unpleasentries we may have to go through in the future but anyway I just say we try not to let this discussion get out of hand. That would be mighty silly now, wouldn't it? :p

[Roa_Aoife]

I've apologized for insult caused in the past, Form, but I was met with scorn for it.

No matter how many times I have explicitly stated that I don't think my way is the only good way to play, and that I don't think of myself as better than anyone else, people still insist on taking my words the wrong way. Indeed, some people seem determined to find fault in everything I say.

I never intentionally insult people. I say what I mean, and nothing more than that. You want an apology? I'll apologize when I stop getting attacked everytime I open my mouth.

[Sleepy Ranger]

I wonder if I'll ever be able to begin setting up my game... :(

[Roa_Aoife]

No one's stopping you.

[Sleepy Ranger]

No one's stopping you.

Not directly, it would probably get drowned in the impending debate on the subject of gameplay etiquette.

[Roa_Aoife]

Indeed, which is why I think we should have seperate thread for this. When Saucepan Man comes around, I really suggest that if he wants the discussion to continue, he move it else where.

I'm willing to bite my tongue until then if everyone else is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I dont want my style of speech dictated.

Careful, good members of the Barrow-Downs! You haven't forgotten that the Werewolf games take place in the context of this forum, have you? We have very clear rules about post content, and even if some of you come here only for the games, those rules still apply. This is not a democracy, it is a site owned by The Barrow-Wight; he has the sole right to make guidelines for posting. The Werewolf games are no exception to the forum rules. Personal insults and flaming are never acceptable.

[Mister Underhill]

What Esty said. We've never allowed the "I'm a straight-shooter!" gambit to excuse insulting, aggressive, or sarcastic posting.

Keep in mind that civil discussion is and always has been the rule here across the board, and that The Saucepan Man has been empowered by BD administration to enforce board policies, here in Mirth and elsewhere.

I personally don't think a separate thread is necessary -- SPM's sticky post is clear. If you are in doubt about a post, chances are you can dial it back some. Don't attack other posters; analyze issues. Don't make posts that drip with sarcasm or that are even obliquely insulting. Play nice. This stuff is Downs 101.

I'll leave it up to SPM to judge whether this issue requires its own thread or not. Just keep in mind that these policies are as old as the Downs itself.

[Roa_Aoife]

Just so we're clear, the purpose of that particular statement , Esty, was to point out the hypocracy being shown. Not about freedom of speech. I already made my point about that.

And I repeat- I brought my questions from my very first post, most of which have yet to be answered, to SPM privately first, and he told me to post them here for general discussion.

I understand forum rules- No Flaming, No Spamming, Be NIce, etc, etc, etc. When the day comes that a mod tells me I'm breaking a rule, I'll cease and disist. When someone says, "Roa, maybe I mis-read you, but you sound like your insulting me, so could you please not do that?" I'll apologize and try to correct whatever misunderstanding took place. (And if you don't believe me, it's happened before, though even then it was met with insult and attack.)

However, when people all but flame me and intentionally insult me for merely stating my opinion, and yet no one comments on it, I fail to see how they can claim "rules" on me.

The very purpose of this discussion is to determine wether the post game comments are breaking the rules or not, and what can be done to fix the high tensions that are forming. SPM has instituted some rules to help stem the problem, but he also encouraged discussion of those rules so that a true solution could be reached. A few attempts have been made, but as this will ultimately decide how werewolf will be played, I should think some more people might want to be involved.

I've stated my opinion. I've responded to others. In no place was I singling out a specific person. In no place did I flame or throw insult. In no place did I criticize someone for disagreeing with me. Rather, I'm being criticized because my opinion is unpopular. I'm sorry people don't like what I think, but I'm not sorry for thinking it.

Why can't I state my opinion without everyone jumping on me for it? Why does this seem to hold true for various other members with unpopular opinion? Why does Nogrod have to apologize for stating his opinion, and then have excuse his own behavior? Why was the message sent to newcomer Loki, "We don't like you, so you can't play?" Why was Mac, who stated the same opinion as Nogrod and myself, in about the same tone of voice, not attacked? Was Diamond, who was far more insulting, left alone because she took the popular opinion? And since when is sarcasm not allowed on the Down's? I can name at least ten highly ranked and well known members who use it in just about every post, and I can't think of a single member who hasn't used it at least once.

If anyone can answer these questions, I'd really like to know.

[The Saucepan Man]

OK. Some points here to respond to.

First, on a point of administration:

Indeed, which is why I think we should have seperate thread for this. When Saucepan Man comes around, I really suggest that if he wants the discussion to continue, he move it else where. I regard this as the general admin thread for Werewolf games, and it is therefore the appropriate place for general discussion, which includes the current debate.

I would suggest, however, that we start a convention (or, more accurately, adopt the convention used by Mithalwen) whereby the person running each game starts an admin thread for that game, parallel to the main game thread. That admin thread can then be used for recruiting, for any discussion of proposed roles, rules etc and for notifications of absence and the like.

That will avoid points pertinent to the game in question being lost within the general discussion and also avoid this thread becoming cluttered with game-sepcific posts. The convention should be adopted for Werewolf "Junior" games too.

So, Sleepy, would you like to do the honours by starting an admin thread for your forthcoming game and commencing recruitment?

Now, to business.

Careful, good members of the Barrow-Downs! You haven't forgotten that the Werewolf games take place in the context of this forum, have you? We have very clear rules about post content, and even if some of you come here only for the games, those rules still apply.Quite so. And, by way of a reminder, here is the relevant extract from the Barrow-downs Forum Policies (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=206774#post206774):

FLAMING, TROLLING, AND INSULTING

In an online forum, feelings are easily hurt. It's imperative that you not be combative in your responses to others.
Don't comment on other members - comment on their posts.
Make an effort to defend and support your point rather than attack the points of other members. If you do disagree on a point, debate it in a civil manner.
Don't name call.
Don't intentionally bait others into bad behavior.
Don't bring private quarrels or chat quarrels into the forum.
I think that, in light of the nature of the current debate, everyone would do well to bear these policies in mind. It is in the nature of a forum such as this that members have time to reflect on what they are saying in their posts, consider the effect that their words might have on others and, where necessary or appropriate, tone down or amend the words used. I would counsel all to take advantage of this opportunity in the current debate.

Keep in mind that civil discussion is and always has been the rule here across the board, and that The Saucepan Man has been empowered by BD administration to enforce board policies, here in Mirth and elsewhere. Indeed and, while I prefer the option of constructive debate with a view to reaching common consensus, I will not hesitate to use those powers if I think that matters are getting out of hand.

A response to some of the particular points that have been raised will follow ...

[Gurthang]

A few attempts have been made, but as this will ultimately decide how werewolf will be played, I should think some more people might want to be involved.
I hadn't seen it that way at all. The issue in question is not something that I would consider werewolf specific. Rather, I think it's a problem that has happened to occur within the werewolf games, but is largely unnecessary and often harmful to them.

I think you are basically saying you are receiving the bad end of a double standard, Roa. If that were true, I would agree with you that it is unfair. But I don't think the standard is as two-faced as it might seem in this case.

As to your questions, I can't really answer many of them. As far as Loki goes, I do not think your statement is correct. True, some members did not necessarily relish his style or personality, but I was not aware that anyone directly told him he was not welcome to play. Now sarcasm: I agree with you in that respect. Although, I think the nature of sarcasm is very important. Insulting sarcasm is not what I would call a good thing; it's quite the contrary. Playful sarcasm, or perhaps you could call it banter, is something I do quite often myself. I do have to be careful, though, since I can't send my 'joking' tone across the words. Here's where the smilies help. :D

[The Saucepan Man]

Before anyone starts freaking out and thinking that the thread will get closed for this, Saucepan Man told me to post my responses here. He thinks actually discussing the problem may help us find the best possible solution. What a novel concept.Indeed. I did suggest that these points be raised here because I think that some of them merit further consideration. And I do not see why discussion of them should not help us find a solution, or at least better understand where others are coming from, provided that the debate is conducted courteously, respectfully and within the bounds of the aforementioned forum policies. Surely this is not a novel concept on a discussion forum?

What do we deem crossing the line? Where is the line? Does this mean we can't point out where things went wrong? Is all critical rhetoric banned, or only that which is designed to be insulting?The “line” is basically defined by a proper application of the forum policies outlined above. There is no prohibition on constructive discussion of Werewolf tactics, differing styles of play etc. The problem arises when such discussion singles out particular players, or groups of players, in a critical manner.

I've always been of the view that if something doesn't go well, wether it is a game or anything else, then it is in everyone's best interest to figure why it didn't go so well. Are we not supposed to do that? Is the post discussion now going to be reserved for half-hearted compliments and rosy talk?As I said on the other thread, I really see little point in trying to categorise games, or particular approaches to games, as either “good” or “bad”. There is of course scope for discussion as to why one side won while the other side lost. But there is no need for that to descend into personal criticism of other players’ styles. Personally, in the post game analysis, I prefer to concentrate on the positives, rather than the negatives. So, I will make a point of noting posts or stratagems that I thought were particularly good. But I don’t think anyone really wants to be told that they were responsible for “letting their side down”. And I see little point in dwelling on that. Telling people that they could have done better or that the way that they played worked against their team only serves to give the impression that the person doing so knows better than them and is lecturing them on how to play. This is not a Werewolf school, but rather a place in which Werewolf games are to be played and enjoyed.

Am I not supposed to say what I think? I've never insisted that my opinion is fact, but I do expect that if someone is going to disagree with me that they at least come up with a good reason why. Of course you can say what you think, provided that you do so in a polite and respectful manner, avoid personal criticism and consider how your words might be received by others. Also, it is possible to state opinion in such away that it comes across as an attempt to state fact, or at least to state an authoritative view. That should be avoided. I tend do so by using phrases like “to my mind” and “in my opinion”, so as to avoid any misunderstanding in this regard.

The more I think about it, the more that I think that, as Kath and Formy have commented, this really comes down to the tone used. If you sound like you are lecturing or criticising or patronising, then people are bound to react badly. And a forthright and aggressive manner can sometimes come across that way. It is not a matter of not saying what you think, but considering how you can best say it without causing offence.

I'd also like to point out that many people who are so insulted over post-game discussion are the very ones who toss out "stupid," "foolish," and other such insults in game. So, it's okay to be rude and insulting during the game where everyone's trying to have fun, but after the game is over, we can't even say, "We didn't do well this game, and I think it was because...?"No. It’s not okay to be rude and insulting in a game. The forum policies apply just as much within a game as they do to a post-game discussion. Of course, the role-play element has been known to involve a little “play acting” rudeness, but I think that it is generally pretty clear when that is the case. Also, I don’t see any problem with criticising other players’ votes or reasoning or the like, since that is a part of the game and is generally accepted by players as such, provided that it does not descend into personal criticism, name-calling or undue rudeness. Every player has a responsibility to ensure that their posts should not cause undue offence. The game moderator should step in if things are getting out of hand and, if necessary, involve me or one of the other Mods or Admins (capitals denote forum Mods, as distinct from game moderators). I do tend to keep an eye on games that I am not playing, being an inveterate Werewolf spectator, but I cannot be expected to follow every such game in detail.

Am I to be banned from stating my opinion because some people have their panties in a bunch and can't handle it?It strikes me that this is an example of a statement that might have been better phrased so as to avoid any possibility of causing offence. In essence, you are entitled to state your opinion, but you should take reasonable care to do so in a manner that will not cause offence to others.

Some people just have a tendency to over-react and read into what's being said when you really shouldn't. I agree that, just as people should consider the effect that the words they choose may have on others, so those responding should take care not to overreact and risk inflaming the situation. In any discussion, all participants should endeavour to choose their words and tone carefully so as to avoid, as far as rreasonably possible, causing offence.

I suggest we let the mod of that game decide. If the mod thinks its in limit then it is, if the mod thinks its getting out of hand it is.Yes. Every game moderator has an obligation to ensure, as far as they are able, that their game does not descend into petty squabbling. But that can sometimes be difficult, so I am ready to assist in this regard, where required.

It's slightly upsetting to see so many people getting over heated.We should all try to ensure that this debate does not get over heated, or at least avoid fanning such flames as are already licking at its foundations. My purpose in starting it was not to provoke a heated argument, but rather a civil and rational discussion. I perceived that there was a problem and acted. I could have let matters stand with the sticky warning post, but I would prefer not to stifle opinon, provided that it is expressed within the spirt of the forum policies.

So once again, sorry if I have offended someone, but as that example quite beautifully shows, it's more often than not unintentional from my part.Nogrod, my (non-existant) grasp of Finnish pales into insignifigance in comparison with your admirable command of the English language. Nevertheless, the fact that some here are not using their first language is bound to cause misunderstanding on occasion, and you are right to raise this issue. It is something that we should all bear in mind. That said, I would still counsel steering away from categorising games as “good” or “ bad” and seeking to analyse such categorisation by reference to players’ approaches to the game.

With no offence intended by saying so, you, Roa, are one of the worse offenders here. You are supremely self-confidant, and highly opinionated. Your choice of words tends to come across as very high-handed. Whether or not you intend to insult people, the result seems in general to be that you get people's ire up. Your speeches tend to sound like you treat yourself and your way as best- the implication being that everyone else is worse and would do well to be the same as you.While you claim to intend no offence, Form, I think that this is the kind of comment that risks inflaming the debate. While the standard modus operandi here is to respond to individual posts, I don’t think that means that we have to express our views as personal critiques of those we are responding to. I would prefer that any discussion of particular posting styles takes place in the abstract, rather than singling out particular individuals.

Just so we're clear, the purpose of that particular statement , Esty, was to point out the hypocracy being shown.Sorry, Roa, I am not at all clear on this one. What do you mean by “hypocracy” in the context of this debate?

However, when people all but flame me and intentionally insult me for merely stating my opinion, and yet no one comments on it, I fail to see how they can claim "rules" on me. I don’t think it helps the debate by casting yourself as the victim, Roa. Where I have seen language which I deem might be offensive or taken as personal criticism, whether by you or directed to you, I have highlighted this above and I hope that the same will be avoided in the future.

As I see it, this debate is not, or at least should not be, “everyone against Roa” and I want to avoid it becoming polarised in that way. There are a range of opinions here on various isues, and I see no reason why they should not be calmly and civilly discussed as such. But casting yourself as the victim only serves to increase the polarisation into the two camps: Roa and everyone else.

The very purpose of this discussion is to determine wether the post game comments are breaking the rules or not, and what can be done to fix the high tensions that are forming. SPM has instituted some rules to help stem the problem, but he also encouraged discussion of those rules so that a true solution could be reached. A few attempts have been made, but as this will ultimately decide how werewolf will be played, I should think some more people might want to be involved.A good summary of the rationale for this debate, with which I thoroughly agree.

Why can't I state my opinion without everyone jumping on me for it? Why does this seem to hold true for various other members with unpopular opinion?Perhaps this is the basis for the claim of hypocrisy. If so, I do not agree that this is what is happening. You have expressed your views. Others, including me, have commented on them. Just as it is your right to express your opinion, so others have the right to express theirs. You cannot expect or force everyone to agree with you. That said, the best way forward is for us to try to find some common ground on which we can move forward in a manner which minimises the risk of incidents like this occurring.

To the extent that you have been singled out for personal criticism, I have (as noted above) commented on this and would counsel everyone to refrain from indulging in this in future. If anyone fails to heed my advice in this regard, I will start deleting/editing posts as appropriate.

Why does Nogrod have to apologize for stating his opinion, and then have excuse his own behavior?I felt Nogrod’s apology to be genuine. If he has anything further to add, then I somehow doubt that he will hold himself back. ;)

Why was the message sent to newcomer Loki, "We don't like you, so you can't play?"I think that many, myself included, found Loki’s approach unduly offensive and out of keeping with the forum policies noted earlier. That said, provided that he is able to participate in a more measured manner, I would welcome his renewed paricipation.

Why was Mac, who stated the same opinion as Nogrod and myself, in about the same tone of voice, not attacked?To be frank, I think that Mac’s tone was less provocative. I certainly do not recall seeing any problem with the way he expressed himself. I would welcome his involvement in this debate.

Was Diamond, who was far more insulting, left alone because she took the popular opinion?As I recall, Diamond’s tone was more defensive. However, my comments apply equally to her as they do to everyone else.

And since when is sarcasm not allowed on the Down's?I think that Gurthang hit the nail on the head with this one:

Insulting sarcasm is not what I would call a good thing; it's quite the contrary. Playful sarcasm, or perhaps you could call it banter, is something I do quite often myself.The basic principle applies. If its insulting, or might reasonably be taken as insulting, then it’s best avoided.

If anyone can answer these questions, I'd really like to know.Done (I hope).

I hadn't seen it that way at all. The issue in question is not something that I would consider werewolf specific. Rather, I think it's a problem that has happened to occur within the werewolf games, but is largely unnecessary and often harmful to them. The fact remains that it is a problem which has arisen (and has for some time been threatening to arise) in the context of Werewolf games, and so needs to be addressed by reference to them. The peculiar nature of Werewolf games unfortunately does lend itself to dispute. For that reason, I think that there is reason to take particular care in how we express ourselves, both within the game and in our post-game comments.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I really must get some sleep so I am not too tired to do the work tomorrow that I should have been doing today, rather than dealing with this issue. ;)

[Roa_Aoife]

Perhaps this is the basis for the claim of hypocrisy. If so, I do not agree that this is what is happening. You have expressed your views. Others, including me, have commented on them. Just as it is your right to express your opinion, so others have the right to express theirs. You cannot expect or force everyone to agree with you. That said, the best way forward is for us to try to find some common ground on which we can move forward in a manner which minimises the risk of incidents like this occurring.

I was actually refering to all post-game discussions and some in game discussions that have ended up this way, not just this debate. And it's not just me- it's anyone who has ever pointed out something that others simply don't want to hear. Many players, beyond those I have mentioned, have been subjected to the same. I'm not talking about blatent insults and name-calling, I'm talking about being truthful with how we think things went. Any time someone has said something less than "Great job," about the game, they have been attacked for it.

But the note about hypocrisy was this:

They don't want their style of play dictated? I dont want my style of speech dictated.

Which Esty mistook took as a statement that I should be allowed to say whatever I want. Really, I was pointing out the absurdity of people demanding that I change the way I talk when they flip out over the slightest suggestion that their way of playing a game is less than great.

As I see it, this debate is not, or at least should not be, “everyone against Roa” and I want to avoid it becoming polarised in that way. There are a range of opinions here on various isues, and I see no reason why they should not be calmly and civilly discussed as such. But casting yourself as the victim only serves to increase the polarisation into the two camps: Roa and everyone else.

I'm not trying to turn this into a "Everyone vs Roa" debate- that wouldn't help me in the least. I'm using myself as an example because I (obviously) understand my point of view better than anyone else's. I am aware that some people actually agree with me, or least aren't particularly against me. But I can only be certain about my own view- for everyone else, I'd have to make assumptions.

I felt Nogrod’s apology to be genuine. If he has anything further to add, then I somehow doubt that he will hold himself back.

I certainly believe Nogrod is sincere in his apology. I just don't think he did anything particularly wrong, and I really admire that he would simply apologize rather than waste the effort defending himself. What I meant is that he shouldn't be made to feel bad for saying what he thought.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roa
I'd also like to point out that many people who are so insulted over post-game discussion are the very ones who toss out "stupid," "foolish," and other such insults in game. So, it's okay to be rude and insulting during the game where everyone's trying to have fun, but after the game is over, we can't even say, "We didn't do well this game, and I think it was because...?"
No. It’s not okay to be rude and insulting in a game. The forum policies apply just as much within a game as they do to a post-game discussion. Of course, the role-play element has been known to involve a little “play acting” rudeness, but I think that it is generally pretty clear when that is the case.

This was a rhetorical question and another comment on hypocrisy. I'm not referring to play acting rudeness- it's werewolf, we are trying to kill each other, after all. I'm talking about the explicitly insulting terms. Just think back to the game Diamond modded- Attack of the Wereducks. Because of in-game rudeness, many people left the game feeling horrible. There were direct insults flying all over the place. Yet these very people say that I'm insulting, when I haven't singled anyone out, or used any sort of direct name-calling.

As far as Loki goes, I do not think your statement is correct. True, some members did not necessarily relish his style or personality, but I was not aware that anyone directly told him he was not welcome to play.

I think that many, myself included, found Loki’s approach unduly offensive and out of keeping with the forum policies noted earlier. That said, provided that he is able to participate in a more measured manner, I would welcome his renewed paricipation.

I took up pming Loki (in attempt to calm things down) and do you know what I found out? People neg-repped him, and pm'ed with various messages of "I hope you leave the boards," and "I really don't like you. Just go away." Maybe his out of game style was overly rude, but his in game wasn't nearly as rude as everyone made it out to be. In fact, he played just like Garin, a player who was never attacked with the same viciousness. Really, the cause of the anti-Loki movement in game was Nogrod (who should not be blamed as he was doing his job as a wolf.) He made three posts, on a day that had +200, and everyone decided that he was just causing too much confusion and trouble, mostly because they just didn't like him.

It strikes me that this is an example of a statement that might have been better phrased so as to avoid any possibility of causing offence. In essence, you are entitled to state your opinion, but you should take reasonable care to do so in a manner that will not cause offence to others.

I see your point here, and I apologize. That was unecessarily rude of me. I'll try to avoid statements like that in the future.

And I would like to reiterate that I never mean to insult anyone. As Form pointed out, I'm extremely self-confident and highly opinionated, and as he missed, brutally honest. This gets me into trouble often, but it's who I am. Don't take me personally- if I want to attack you personally, I'll do it in PM.

[Lhunardawen]

Let's take a pleasant stroll down memory lane, shall we? Or at least this is MY memory lane, because I've only played in a few games (relatively).

Nilp started his whole "Lynch me!" campaign in WW VII. An enormously surprising strategy to all players, I'm sure, and he got what he wanted first Day. After the game, no one personally attacked him for that (perhaps because he was just an ordo, anyway); on the contrary, a lot of people found it hilarious. In much later games, though, it suddenly became an issue - perhaps because he was something other than an ordo then. But it's his style of play. Should we care if he gets lynched or not, whichever side he might be playing for?

Not to be self-promoting or something, I played a Lhunatic in WW VI, and a far worse one in WW VII. It was funny, or so people told me. Logically I should have earned an early lynching for it, but I stayed alive longer than most (Eomer's strategy at fault here :p). A reprise was done in WW XVI, and while that single Day of Lhunacy had somehow affected the game, I wasn't reprimanded for changing styles within the game. Because that's how I wanted to play, and no one really cares.

morm was a crabby wolf in WW XV, and when I tell you he was insulting, I mean he was REALLY insulting. But that was his chosen role - he had to live up to it. He apologized to all players for his in-character insulting comments, which I don't think he really had to do since I doubt anyone was offended by his being in-character.

A few wolves in the past won the game for their side thanks to, as I see it, their style of going unnoticed, whether deliberately or not. malkatoj was busy in real life, she claimed, when she was a wolf in XVI, and she survived because we could, or would, not interrogate her further to find out if she really was a wolf. Some (or perhaps just I) choose to be silent (read: post as little as possible) when lupine for fear of saying something that would incriminate themselves, and there's nothing others can do about that. The game really involves deception, and that kind of gameplay, while quite unfair, falls under it.

Okay, I think I'm straying from my point. It's just this: we've had more than twenty games, counting the Junior ones as well, and we've had a variety of characters to play, some of which required styles that could somehow affect the outcome of the game for ill, particularly - causing confusion, being offensive, etc. But why were odd playing styles tolerated in earlier games, while now they come under heavy scrutiny? Why are things getting more and more serious as the games pass? Why does there seem to be an increasing obsession to win, leading to uncomfortable post-game discussions when one side loses - as should really happen? Come on, we've been at this for over a year now. Perhaps that's the problem: we've been playing this for too long, and as we run out of new things gamewise to fiddle with, we start going after the players themselves. I am not pleased with this, but I'm beginning to think that it might be better to temporarily put the games on hold, hoping that the fires will die down if there's nothing to fuel them for some time.

I don't know if I'm helping at all with this, but I thought maybe it would be nice to remind you how pleasant, however outrageous, the games used to be.

[Diamond18]

was actually refering to all post-game discussions and some in game discussions that have ended up this way, not just this debate. And it's not just me- it's anyone who has ever pointed out something that others simply don't want to hear. Many players, beyond those I have mentioned, have been subjected to the same. I'm not talking about blatent insults and name-calling, I'm talking about being truthful with how we think things went. Any time someone has said something less than "Great job," about the game, they have been attacked for it.

This statement has me floored because it's simply not true. It's... not... true. You are taking one or two instances of extreme criticism that garnered negetive reactions (Loki in DW, and then you and Nogrod in Zydeco) and portraying it as an "all the time everyone for every little thing" trend. If you want to give me other examples that back up your claim feel free to go searching because I really doubt that you will find any -- or at least, any that have taken place since I've been around to see them. I can think of one game right off the top of my head which involved post game comments about lack of stellar play that were not attacked -- Cailín's game. There were comments about the village win not being totally deserved and I for one was among the ones who made such a comment. No one was attacked for saying these things. Therefore the above quoted statement is false.

One thing that really caused me to respond on Zydeco was that it seemed you were upset that you won because the village didn't perform as well as you thought they should have -- in effect robbing you of the chance to win in impressive fashion against all odds, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood your feelings but whenever the winner obviously does not appear to appreciate the fact that they won I have to question the class of their actions. This is different from the latest Lovers game because it seemed that the Lovers played very well and truly deserved to win, so even though I was a villager I regretted somewhat that they hadn't technically prevailed.


Just think back to the game Diamond modded- Attack of the Wereducks. Because of in-game rudeness, many people left the game feeling horrible. There were direct insults flying all over the place. Yet these very people say that I'm insulting, when I haven't singled anyone out, or used any sort of direct name-calling.

I'm afraid I don't see the point of dragging the Wereducks game through the mud. I already apologized to Mithalwen and Glirdan for my role in causing them some distress in the game -- and I rather think you are making it out to be a lot worse than it was. The only people who actually defected from the game were you, Sleepy, and Cailín and you all told me it was for RL reasons. One thing I do remember quite clearly about that game was that you ripped into Nilp very hard for his playing style. You later apologized, I grant you, but really, I am not sure you want to be bringing up Wereducks in favor of yourself. Trust me, I am not being sarcastic when I say that -- I really do think that is quite the worst game to use as an example of how people are jumping on you for no good reason. As far as I can see you are now turning this into "Roa vs certain people who will go unnamed but they played in or modded Wereducks" and that's really rather transparent.

As to SpM's sticky notice, I think I made my opinions on this whole subject fairly clear last time I posted (in the Zydeco game thread). I had expected some discussion there and was rather surprised to log on tonight to see all this. I am quite in agreement with what SpM wrote, and so have not much else to add, except for this one last point:


And I would like to reiterate that I never mean to insult anyone. As Form pointed out, I'm extremely self-confident and highly opinionated, and as he missed, brutally honest. This gets me into trouble often, but it's who I am. Don't take me personally- if I want to attack you personally, I'll do it in PM.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how denying that you are in any way responsible for how people take your statements helps matters any. It seems to be at the core of this discussion -- the difference between constructive criticism and deconstructive criticism. The line can be thin, but just taking the stance that to be abrasive is your personality type and people should just deal with it because they should understand your motivations is not going to resolve this issue. Quite the opposite. Brutal honesty is only as honest as one's own subjective viewpoint.

[Valier]

All of this is MAKING Werewolf no fun!! It's just a game. Who cares who wins or loses and in what fashion. There will be another one coming along shortly, so why dwell on past games? Let it go. Let everything go. I repeat, it is just a game. Games are meant to be fun. Yes having fond memories of certain games is OK, like having a quote from a fellow player in your sig (many of you have these) or reminiscing, but if one game was not fun for you in any way, forget it, don't mention it. Enjoy them for what they are and really, who really needs to go over why the game was what it was? Sit back, take a deep breath and heck if you feel the need to B&$# at someone, please do it to your cat or something.

I for one take these games in stride and yes I have felt offended in a couple games IE: Cailin calling me annoying, or Mith calling me frothy. Both I let know that I felt they should apologize, that I was "hurt" and they did, and now I use these instances in fun, knowing they did not mean me, just the way I post, which IS different from who I am.

I feel that the even the grimoire is kinda a bad thing, because it keeps track of who won what and in what fashion. WHO CARES!!! Just have fun!!

I will continue to play werewolf and remember, new members always bring new ideas. I for one have several floating around in my brain and they all include having fun and being silly while playing WW.

[Anguirel]

Nilp actually started his "Lynch me!" tactic in WWIV. I was the Seer and played a major part in lynching him. He was, of course, innocent.

Now I shall scuttle back into my hermitage. As the Wise have oft quoth in bygone years:

wibble

[The Saucepan Man]

I was actually refering to all post-game discussions and some in game discussions that have ended up this way, not just this debate. And it's not just me- it's anyone who has ever pointed out something that others simply don't want to hear. Many players, beyond those I have mentioned, have been subjected to the same. I'm not talking about blatent insults and name-calling, I'm talking about being truthful with how we think things went. Any time someone has said something less than "Great job," about the game, they have been attacked for it.Being “truthful” about how things went is all very well, provided that it does not come across as personal criticism or lecturing. In all the Werewolf games that have been played on the Downs, only a handful of the post-game analyses (all of which have involved discussing how things went) have given rise to people being upset or offended. So it’s clearly possible to discuss such things in a good-natured fashion without giving cause for offence. It is, I think, mainly a matter of choosing the right tone and manner. In most cases where problems have arisen, the underlying cause of any rancour has not been the unpopular opinion, but the manner in which it has been expressed.

In the future, I don’t want to see anyone being attacked (ie subjected to personal criticism, abuse or victimisation) for expressing their opinion, even if it is an unpopular one, provided that such opinion has been expressed in an inoffensive and measured fashion. That applies across the board.

Really, I was pointing out the absurdity of people demanding that I change the way I talk when they flip out over the slightest suggestion that their way of playing a game is less than great.There is no absurdity or hypocrisy here. No one is accusing you of inept or ineffective posting (far from it ;)), which would be the equivalent of commenting that someone did not play particularly well. Subject to the exceptions specific to in-game posts that I mentioned earlier, the same principle applies to both gaming style and posting style. If it breaches forum guidelines (ie involves personal criticism or is uncivil, impolite or reasonably capable of giving offence) then it is unacceptable. Beyond that, I am not asking anyone to change anything.

I certainly believe Nogrod is sincere in his apology. I just don't think he did anything particularly wrong, and I really admire that he would simply apologize rather than waste the effort defending himself. What I meant is that he shouldn't be made to feel bad for saying what he thought.Well, if we accept his apology as genuine (which both you and I do), he obviously felt that there was something to apologise for.

Just think back to the game Diamond modded- Attack of the Wereducks. Because of in-game rudeness, many people left the game feeling horrible. There were direct insults flying all over the place. Yet these very people say that I'm insulting, when I haven't singled anyone out, or used any sort of direct name-calling.I would prefer, in this discussion, to consider the best way of moving forward, rather than looking to the past. However, your reference to the Wereducks game does bring up a point worth making. Most of the grief expressed in that game was as a result of players (the Ducks and the Goose, in particular) doing, or attempting to do, what their roles required them to do. Anyone who plays Werewolf has to accept that, within the context of the game, they are going to be accused of lying and/or not be believed when they are telling the truth. That is a function of the game. While it can sometimes be difficult (and I have been guilty of this myself in the past) we have to avoid being over-sensitive to such things when they happen within the game.

I took up pming Loki (in attempt to calm things down) and do you know what I found out? People neg-repped him, and pm'ed with various messages of "I hope you leave the boards," and "I really don't like you. Just go away."I don’t condone neg reps or PMs like that. It would have been much better to point out the ways in which his rude and abrasive approach was inconsistent with the forum guidelines. In hindsight, I should have done that myself at the time. But I have learned from that. I would note, however, that his style was markedly different from that of Garin, who is “abrasive” in a humorous and inoffensive manner. As far as I can recall, I have never had any problem with Garin’s posting style.

And I would like to reiterate that I never mean to insult anyone. As Form pointed out, I'm extremely self-confident and highly opinionated, and as he missed, brutally honest. This gets me into trouble often, but it's who I am. Don't take me personally- if I want to attack you personally, I'll do it in PM. Self-confidence, strength of mind and honesty are wonderful traits to have. But, in a forum such as this, they should be tempered with politeness, courtesy and respect (rather than brutality ;)). If that means biting your tongue (or keyboard) occasionally in order to avoid giving offence, then so be it. Proper adherence to the forum guidelines can sometimes require that.

Okay, I think I'm straying from my point. It's just this: we've had more than twenty games, counting the Junior ones as well, and we've had a variety of characters to play, some of which required styles that could somehow affect the outcome of the game for ill, particularly - causing confusion, being offensive, etc. But why were odd playing styles tolerated in earlier games, while now they come under heavy scrutiny? Why are things getting more and more serious as the games pass? Why does there seem to be an increasing obsession to win, leading to uncomfortable post-game discussions when one side loses - as should really happen?I agree with this, and the final point is perhaps the most pertinent (and it is one reiterated by Valier). We have come to a stage where the winning, for some people at least, is assuming greater importance the taking part, and the post-game discussions are starting to reflect this. If winning is important to you (and it certainly is to me), by all means try your hardest in the game to achieve that. But not everyone has the same approach. Some people just want to take part and have some fun, and there is nothing wrong with that. And that is a point that should be borne in mind in the post-game discussions.

I feel that the even the grimoire is kinda a bad thing, because it keeps track of who won what and in what fashion. WHO CARES!!! Just have fun!!I was beginning to wonder that myself. But I would prefer to keep it going for now, and rely on people being sensible enough not to take it too seriously.

Diamond, I agree with much of what you say, but the principles that I have outlined apply to you as much as they do to the rest of us. Accordingly, I think that it would be helpful if you were to take care to avoid adopting an overly confrontational approach, particularly in discussions like this (whatever the provocation – let me deal with that). For example:

This statement has me floored because it's simply not true. It's... not... true … Therefore the above quoted statement is false.It strikes me that this is another illustration of the importance choosing your words carefully. Rather than accusing someone of telling untruths, would it not be better simply to say that you disagree and then state why?

This, of course, applies to everyone. Consider your words carefully (just like you would if you were playing a Wolf ;)) and take account of the effect that they may have on those reading.

For my own part, I know that some of the things that I have said risk making me unpopular in some quarters. But they need to be said and, for my sins, I have assumed the responsibility for doing so and for ensuring that the principles which I have outlined are adhered to in the future. I would, however, ask for eveyone’s co-operation in that regard, since that will make my job a lot easier (and less time-consuming).

[Macalaure]

*shyly gazes around from under his full cover* ;)


Why was Mac, who stated the same opinion as Nogrod and myself, in about the same tone of voice, not attacked?To be frank, I think that Mac’s tone was less provocative. I certainly do not recall seeing any problem with the way he expressed himself. I would welcome his involvement in this debate.I only played two games so far. Both were short and in both I had to deal with RL-interference, so I come down to a total of 4 Days.
In other words, feel free to ignore my opinion, which is now to follow.


You don't learn from failure. You learn from people telling you what your fault was and how you can do better. In this respect, I think post-game analyses can be very interesting and fruitful. Some people don't like these discussions that much, but (no offense, really, it's perfectly okay) nobody forces them to participate in it or even read them. However, something went wrong in the post-Zydeco-discussion. It started with Nogrod complaining that, though the village didn't go particularly well for the innocents, nobody at all discussed the why of this. The following discussion quickly went the wrong way, and I see no more sense in putting the blame for this on anybody. All I want to note is that, to me, this was never about playing styles. The more styles, the more fun.

The reason why I don't want to go into detail anymore is that all this has clearly gotten out of hands. Some posts I've read recently are much too bitter for my taste. As Valier said, this right now is not making playing Werewolf more fun than before.


I will continue to play werewolf and remember, new members always bring new ideas. I for one have several floating around in my brain and they all include having fun and being silly while playing WW.
And this I full-heartedly second. :)

[Nogrod]

Uh-Oh!

Lot's of sparks flying around... but just a few words in defense of my "arch-nemesis in-gamewise". Yes, she will jump on me for not needing anyone to defend her. :D But I must second Macalaure there: there seems to be too much bitterness over here to just ignore it. Somehow this remainds me about a mob lynching... but not an in-game one. Thank you Spm for trying to find the middle-ground here.

Roa's playing style is many times a bit abrasive or even aggressive (mine sometimes is too, even though not always). Now I must say that I have wittnessed quite a full-frontal attack on her playing style, partly on the grounds that she makes value-judgements of others playing styles... I could see some point in Roa's claim about hypocrisy here. :(

I fully agree with the points that we should not go on picking others and their gaming - saying what is right and what is wrong in any objective or personal level. Hurting others feelings surely isn't what we should be doing here. At the same time I'm inclined to believe in Roa's sincerity about her intentions. Her style of writing may just muddy the waters and help people to take an over-defensive stance before they even read what she actually says.

Roa has been accused here partly of her personal characteristics in unison, with some quite heavy bombardment. I don't think reading those posts has made Roa feel nice. Even though I don't think this to be a discussion of Roa vs. the others, it probably isn't too far fetched to understand Roa feeling like secluded from or scorned by many of the others because of her personality and her views on gaming etc. And that I feel is bad too, quite contrary to what has been called for here by Spm and many others.

So to end this quarrell and to set things right again we should try to be nice, everyone of us, not only Roa.

Thanks Valier for the refreshing comment in the middle of this speculation into which I myself too have fallen back. :)

PS.
Well, if we accept his apology as genuine (which both you and I do), he obviously felt that there was something to apologise for.Yes I did. It was one of my post-game posts that got a bit out of hand as I look at it on retrospect. Although there seems to have been also some linguistics involved too (f.ex. to my ear saying that something is pathetic has always rang as saying something more in a register of fun than actually hurting others...but now I'm afraid I've been wrong with that too).

[The Saucepan Man]

You don't learn from failure. You learn from people telling you what your fault was and how you can do better.Hmm. I still think that this is dangerous territory. In the context of an entertaining pastime, some people would rather not be told that they were at fault for a particular outcome and have no wish to learn to play "better". Also, this will often be a matter of opinion.

I am not going to ban outright discussion of how a particular game turned out the way it did. But people should exercise care when discussing this in the post-game analysis and make every reasonable effort to avoid criticising or giving offence. Tact should be the by-word here and, if you are not inclined to be tactful, please avoid. Blame attribution and indidivual fault finding are definate no-nos.

Roa's playing style is many times a bit abrasive or even aggressive (mine sometimes is too, even though not always).I should make it clear that I have no issue with Roa's playing style (or Nogrod's, for that matter). In fact, I rather like them. Criticism of Roa's playing style, and indeed anyone else's individual playing style, is another no-no.

So to end this quarrell and to set things right again we should try to be nice, everyone of us, not only Roa.Agreed. I would add that my comments here have not been intended in the least to "get at" or "attack" Roa. She has (at my invitation and helpfully, I think, in the context of this debate) raised a number of points that probably needed addressing and so the majority of my responses have been directed towards those points. They are, however, of general application.

And now I would like to start to draw a conclusion to this debate. If you have any further burning issues that you wish to raise or feel the need to respond (courteously, of course) to any particular points that have been made, by all means do so, but I am not sure that there is much more to be added that has not already been said. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. It has, I think, been very useful and, for the most part, conducted in the proper spirit.

I propose reviewing this discussion and trying to distil a few (hopefully uncontroversial) principles/guidelines for Werewolf gaming. At some point (although I make no promises when) I will edit the sticky post to set these out. I will also include some of the other generally accepted Werewolf game rules and conventions at the same time. If anyone has any particular suggestions as to what might be included, please speak up.

[Mithalwen]

I would quite happily ban all post game talk after poor Valesse's game. We were just playing a game, not participating in a masterclass and asking for judgement.

There is a negligible line, to my mind, between unsolicited "constructive criticism" and rudeness. If you have a problem with someone PM them. Participation requirements are the business of the mod. Remember the excellent advice of Thumper's mummy.

[Macalaure]

Hmm. I still think that this is dangerous territory. In the context of an entertaining pastime, some people would rather not be told that they were at fault for a particular outcome and have no wish to learn to play "better". Also, this will often be a matter of opinion.You're right. But, I mean, we are all grown up people here (erm... alright, not all are, but you know what I mean) who should be capable of a little empathy. Just because somebody tells you you might have made a fault does not mean s/he is sour at you. It's just a game, there's no reason to.


I propose reviewing this discussion and trying to distil a few (hopefully uncontroversial) principles/guidelines for Werewolf gaming. At some point (although I make no promises when) I will edit the sticky post to set these out. I will also include some of the other generally accepted Werewolf game rules and conventions at the same time. If anyone has any particular suggestions as to what might be included, please speak up. The well known "It's just a game, so don't be offensive. It's just a game, so don't be offended." cannot be stressed enough. Both sentences are equally important. Though it is self-evident to me, it should be included that this holds for post-game discussion as well.


I would quite happily ban all post game talk after poor Valesse's game. We were just playing a game, not participating in a masterclass and asking for judgement. Well, as I said before, you don't have to participate in the post game talk if you don't want to. There's nothing wrong with that. But you have to concede that there are some players who enjoy it. Recapitulation accompanied with a little analysis of why the game went the way it did is a lot of fun, too. It has nothing to do with grading people's games. Far from it.

The talk after Valesse's game went wrong, one cannot deny that. Banning it now is too harsh a measure to me. (Warning: lame analogy ahead!) The child fell from the apple tree. Do you forbid it to climb again? No, you just tell it to be more careful the next time. :)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Nilp actually started his "Lynch me!" tactic in WWIV. I was the Seer and played a major part in lynching him. He was, of course, innocent. (Anguirel)Most people confuse the suspicious Nilp and the suicidal Nilp.

I played suspicion-hungry stranger in WWIV, but I first cast a vote for myself in WWVII. Therefore my illustrious sister has the correct version of history.

Now I shall resume my sordid love affair with a wonderful arthropod, so auf wiedersehen.

EDIT: After a glance at Lhuny's actual words, I realised that Anguirel is correct. I was clamouring 'Lynch me!' during WWIV, although I got it two DAYs too late. :D

[Kitanna]

I feel that the even the grimoire is kinda a bad thing, because it keeps track of who won what and in what fashion. WHO CARES!!! Just have fun!!
Thank you Valier. I was thinking "who cares" while reading through all of this. I let what was said at first slide off my back because even though I didn't agree with it, it still wasn't much skin off my nose. But now it has turned into something it shouldn't have. I don't see any reason for everyone to be so up-in-arms over this, when it could have been easily resolved at the start with a few simple PMs. But this whole argument is robbing Werewolf of its fun.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I really enjoy the ww games, but if we cannot have them without hurting each others feelings or just plainly showing disrespect, then I think it would better to put them on a hold. The Barrow-Downs has always worked as a kind of a sanctuary for me and if sacrificing WW is what it takes to keep that, then be it!

I am afraid that this might escalate even further and we will end up with a kinslaying of our own.

So what I am saying is: Lets see if we can make WW work again, but if we have any personal chritisism, then put them on a hold.

(We are here to have fun, right ?)

[Roa_Aoife]

Agreed. I would add that my comments here have not been intended in the least to "get at" or "attack" Roa.

No offense taken. You're just trying to keep order in your forum.

The well known "It's just a game, so don't be offensive. It's just a game, so don't be offended." cannot be stressed enough. Both sentences are equally important. Though it is self-evident to me, it should be included that this holds for post-game discussion as well.

Want to hear something ironic? I came up with that. I pm'd LMP during Wereducks, while he was planning Deuling Wizards. I let him know how things were going there. That is, many people, innocents and wolves alike, were throwing around the words stupid and idiotic and just generally insulting each other. At the same time, some people were getting offended over being accused of lying and what not. The point of that statement was that we shouldn't throw around blatant insults, but we also shouldn't assume everything is a personal attack. Unfortunately, people tend to ignore that second part.

In accordance with the rules, I will try to tone things down, and I do apologize for insult caused in the past. If I slip, don't take it as a personal attack. It's just my red-headed temper getting itself worked up.

Now then, on with the gaming.

[Anguirel]

As far as Valesse's game goes, it's none of my business but I must say I agree with Mith entirely. Kicking the stuffing out of a game is almost always rather upsetting to the mod who's battled their way through and done their best-and should be getting accolades, not criticism. When that criticism comes from a member of the winning team, it's still more startling.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

If I slip...
I have an even better suggestion: If you slip in the heat of the moment, reread your post and edit it! This is a forum, not a chat room - all members have the option of removing offending passages from their posts! If you cool down fast enough, maybe it won't even have been read before you correct it. Better yet, before you push the "submit reply" button, look at your post in preview mode to see how others will be seeing it. If in doubt, copy it into Word and wait before you post it. This has often helped me seem more tactful than I would have been had I reacted overemotionally at the spur of the moment!