Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves) [Archive] - Page 3

The Saucepan Man

06-11-2005, 07:45 AM

It is my experience that the villagers usually win. The good guys should always win.Hmm. It doesn't seem to be going that way on the Barrow-Downs. :(

Clearly, in all three games so far (and whatever may come to pass in the current one), those playing the Werewolves have played extremely well, which accounts for a large part of their success.

But I do wonder whether the odds are stacked a little too much against the Villagers. While they have the advantage of numbers, the Villagers' accusations during the first day or so are almost entirely random. While it is possible to pick up on the things that are said or the way that they are said to identify a Werewolf, such things might also lead an innocent Villager to accuse the Seer or Guardian as being a Werewolf (believe me, I know :rolleyes: ). The Werewolves, on the other hand, know who is innocent and can thus "guide" the accusations, while using what is said to try and identify the special Villagers themselves.

So, unless they strike lucky and hang a Werewolf on the first or second day, it is only on the third day that the Villagers can begin get any real idea as to who might be guilty. But, if two innocent Villagers have already been hung (particuarly one of the special Villagers), then those innocent Villagers who were instrumental in that are hampered in their ability to hunt out the Werewolves, being under continuous accusation themselves (again, I know this only too well :( ).

So, for the next game, I would propose two rule changes, either or both of which I hope will find favour.

First, while I like the idea of the moderator being killed on the first night, I do think that the Seer should be allowed to dream on the first night. This will make the deliberations on the first day, and possibly its outcome, slightly less random.

Secondly, I think that the Werewolves should be prohibited from talking behind the scenes (by PM) during the day. They can plan a strategy for the day during their night-time discussions but to give them the opportunity to coordinate what they do during the day as the day unfolds does, I think, give them rather too much power.

Finally, can I ask that the rule against discussing previous games be strictly enforced. And that should apply to comments on what might or might not be a good Werewolf strategy backed up by the fact that the speaker has previously been a Werewolf. By all means, ex-Werewolves can base their comments on having previously been a Werewolf, but they should not be allowed to refer to their previous role as a means of strengthening the force of what they are saying.

Just a few thoughts ...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-11-2005, 08:13 AM

I thought Werewolves could only PM at NIGHT anyway?

And I agree about the Seer dream on the first night. Will make it better.

phantom, I agree entirely. The celebration will be huge! Remember that the odds are stacked against the villagers, but the werewolves can sometimes say more than they mean to. In every game there have been tiny clues scattered hither and thither from start to end.

Although remember that first game, when two wolves went down very early, and Kuru still managed to go the distance? Remarkable.

the guy who be short

06-11-2005, 08:33 AM

After becoming hooked to the Werewolf Game on the BD, I looked around and did some research on other sites discussing gameplay. Apparently, there are usually only two wolves until there are something like seventeen players.
Perhaps instead of allowing the Seer to dream on the first NIGHT (when s/he doesn't even know there are werewolves about, might I add ;)) we could tweak the werewolf:villager ratio a little. I'm pretty sure the next game will have record numbers of players, so I propose we keep only three wolves and make it a little easier on the villagers.

In any case, I believe the entire point of the first DAY is meant to be random finger-pointing :p.

mormegil

06-11-2005, 08:41 AM

I don't see why the seer couldn't dream the first night. I would think the magic would come from impending danger not from an internal desire to dream of werewolves.

Only two wolves? Not sure how that would feel now that we've been up against three. They would be harder to spot probably (their advantage) but would have potentially less influence (village advantage). I would be in favor of keeping three as our standard myself.

the guy who be short

06-11-2005, 09:08 AM

I'd agree with keeping at least three wolves. However, if we're adding more players, I'd advise against adding more werewolves. That way, we could keep three werewolves, but lessen their influence and also tweak the odds slightly more in favour of the villagers as it is elsewhere.

the phantom

06-11-2005, 09:22 AM

I do think that the Seer should be allowed to dream on the first night.
I agree.

And I still think we should add masons to the mix. That could balance the power.

Also, when I play "mafia" (same thing as werewolf) my friends and I have a non-participation rule that I really like. If someone goes through a day period without making an accusation, defending someone, or putting forth a theory, that person is automatically killed at the end of the round (after the lynching).

The moderator simply says "You didn't say enough- you're dead".

Now, this would be more difficult to do online, since voting can sometimes move very quickly, but on days that don't see much voting until the final hour, I don't see why we couldn't do this.

mormegil

06-11-2005, 09:30 AM

I would say we give them one day in which they didn't vote, accuse or overall contribute. But if there are multiple offenses then I think they should be put to the front of everybody's suspect list and probably be lynched by all left in the village.

the guy who be short

06-11-2005, 10:39 AM

You have to remember that people have lives outside the BD too. Circumstances could prevent people from getting to a computer.

the phantom

06-11-2005, 05:02 PM

You have to remember that people have lives outside the BD too. Circumstances could prevent people from getting to a computer.
That's why I said it would be more difficult to do in an online game.

But you know, when the day period lasts a full 24 hours, that's easily long enough to institute a non-participation rule. But since we are online, I suppose it might be okay to take Morm's suggestion and give them one free pass.

But if they have two days in a single game where they do not make a reasonable contribution, I think it would be fine to kill them. Someone shouldn't enter themselves in a game if they're going to be on a trip or doing something that they think will keep them from playing. If you overcommit yourself, that's your own fault- you're going to get killed. That's just tough luck.

And before someone asks "What about in extreme circumstances?", I will answer and say that if someone has a heart attack, gets lost at sea, or loses a family member, I seriously doubt they'll care if they get penalized for non-participation in an internet game.

mormegil

06-11-2005, 09:56 PM

What I would like to see is a thread where those not in the game but are still watching could discuss with fellow BDers about the game itself. For example, now that I'm dead I could come and start explaining my thinkings etc...Others would be able to just speculate and discuss why so and so did something or another.

The major problem is that it's completely based on the honor system and you run risk of those still in the game reading it and getting vital clues. Unless there is a way the moderators can lock them out of the thread until they are dead.

the guy who be short

06-12-2005, 05:44 AM

I don't think a thread for discussing the game would work. It was suggested at another forum but quickly dismissed as people have a habit of saying more than they mean to. Also, if somebody is dead, they should stay dead :p. No rising from the grave to explain the rationale behind your thinking: the others have to guess that themselves.

What we could have is a thread to discuss parts of the game that aren't related to gameplay itself, such as discussing how the Mod writes people's deaths etc. I'm not sure how popular that would be.

Shelob

06-12-2005, 08:52 AM

"The villagers screamed for a good couple of minutes" (from my death in Storyland)

I sincerely hope they remembered to inhale there Eomer...otherwise I would probably have suceeded in killing everyone in Storyland...

mormegil

06-13-2005, 09:49 AM

Must give congrats to Azaelia on her nice kill last night. :) ;)

Was that to avenge me? :D

Holbytlass

06-13-2005, 10:19 AM

Nice shot, Azaelia of Willowbottom!
Now I can sleep......

Azaelia of Willowbottom

06-13-2005, 05:53 PM

:D Thanks! It was a lucky guess. I figured I was going to die that night, since I had been absent so often.

I can't wait for the next game, if there is one, you can count me in! This is so much fun! I should be on more often for the next one, since my school year is pretty much over. My schedule was such that DAYs kept happening right in the middle of my school day, and I didn't like voting early. I will be more active next game!

Shelob

06-13-2005, 06:18 PM

Speaking of the next game, Count me out...this one took a toll on my sleeping habits and my school work (not that the latter of those mattered as much given that no one does anything the last two weeks...but it's the principle).

Actually, count me out of any games until August...I've got too much going on with my trip to Spain to take an active part in these...

I'll still read them though, when I can...so Good Luck to whomever does play.

littlemanpoet

06-13-2005, 06:39 PM

If we're volunteering already, I'd like to give it a whirl. Which is good news for the rest of you, since I'm probably going to thoroughly stink at it and die early..... :p especially if tgwbs is the moderator! :D

Shelob

06-13-2005, 07:13 PM

Don't worry about it...I died early (aka. first) in my first game-- and with luck you'll get as cool a death (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=388505&postcount=58) as I did-- but I did much better this time (aka. I lived past day 1...though being a jack-in-the-box werewolf is rather grating on your nerves...one day you're at the top of everyone's list the next everyone thinks you perfectly innocent...*sighs* not fun.)

Have fun with it.

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 05:42 AM

Well... I'm pretty sure I'm the next Mod (I'm still sort of waiting for confirmation from somebody important, ie BW or SpM) so, a few things:

The outcome of the DAY in the current game will determine when it ends so I will post the recruitment period and start date/time of Werewolf IV as soon as the lynching is complete.

As well as saying you're in, please add your role in the village (Blacksmith, Baker, etc) and whether you think the Seer should be allowed to dream on the first night or not.

The next game will still have non-retractable votes and will have all the same roles. The addition of letters (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=392233&postcount=466) or a Scribe (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=392261&postcount=472) can also be discussed.

And lmp: I wouldn't worry, I can't speeden your death at all. Though I could make it unimaginably gruesome. :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-14-2005, 07:11 AM

Well, you have my blessing sir. :)

But remember that we should wait a good few days before starting a new game, for discussion, deliberation, registration......and just general recharging of the batteries!

As for players, count me in! :D

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 07:15 AM

Me too! I need my next shot of the Tol...

Saurreg

06-14-2005, 07:45 AM

Well Eomer, I'm glad to see for myself that you're right in stating that roleplaying wasn't going to be much of a deal in this latest installment of the forum fad.

I will join the next game.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-14-2005, 08:11 AM

Other than making a brief mention of your occupation, usually at the start of your first post, it really doesn't figure too much.

It's handy if you want to inject a dash of humour, like Saucepan Man and his numerous ale references. :D

mormegil

06-14-2005, 08:19 AM

Also I feel that it gives a good starting point on the first day for conversation. I obviously based my suspicions on people's occupations on DAY 1 but other than that it's pretty much just fun and helps in creating death scenes.

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 08:31 AM

Personally, I love the role-play side, and use it to convey and construct my arguments; but it can be applied a varying amount by different people, according to how much they enjoy it.

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 08:51 AM

Well, it's definitely ended now, so...

Recruitment Period: A while ago to 5:00pm GMT (12:00am EST, 11:00am Central) on Friday 17th June.

Start time: 6:00pm GMT (1:00pm EST, 12:00am Central), Friday 17th June.

EDIT: times have now changed.

The Saucepan Man

06-14-2005, 08:57 AM

I'm probably going to thoroughly stink at it and die early...Better to die early than to survive and be perpetually wrong ... :rolleyes: ;)

The role-play in this game worked pretty much as I intended it to, although there was probably too much mention made of extrinsic (ie non-village related) matters.

Unfortunately, I shall have to give the next game a miss as I will be away on business for much of the latter half of this month. Plus I need time to recover from the stress (and lack of sleep) induced by the last game.

Tgwbs - as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to moderate the next game.

mormegil

06-14-2005, 08:58 AM

I'd love to play again although I'm willing to sit out if we need room for new people.

I could be the local undertaker, but I'm a bit worried about the suspicion that will instantly be placed upon me :D .

As far as the letters or scribe I say simply Meh! If we want to impliment I have no problem with that but I don't think it's a big deal. I would like to possibly see the mason's be introduced though.

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-14-2005, 09:06 AM

Note to self: never second-guess your first conclusions. I knew there were three quiet wolves....

drat drat drat!!!!

Well played indeed Oddwen. My hat, had it remained on my head before my neck snapped, would be off to you.

Lalaith

06-14-2005, 09:08 AM

I should like to play this time, please.

Celuien

06-14-2005, 09:10 AM

Count me in for this one. Just as advance warning, I'm taking this 8 hour long exam (http://www.usmle.org/step1/intro.htm) on June 18, so I won't be very active on the first day.

Allowing the seer to dream on the first night might give the first day's deliberations a little more direction. And I think it would help level the playing field for the villagers to have some information the first day since the werewolves already know who they are.

I'm a weaver. :)

dancing spawn of ungoliant

06-14-2005, 09:15 AM

The wolves have won three times in a row! Congratulations Oddwen, Holbytlass & Shelob! A little drastic end for the Storyland but great game, everyone. I really enjoyed reading it :)

mormegil

06-14-2005, 09:18 AM

Oh yes I am a big supporter of letting the seer dream on the first night. After all I found Firefoot out on the first night :p

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 09:35 AM

Congratulations to the newest member of Victorious Werewolves!!! The membership fee is 300 dukets (give or take, and we will be taking…) With these dues we hope to add a billiard room and informal dining area to the west wing of the building. (The way things are going I think we are going to need the space!) I believe the phantom and dancing spawn are in the Scarlet Room feasting on villagers. Don’t forget to sign up for the villager catering service (now only 100 bizants.)

Don’t forget to stop by the Gift Shoppe and purchase our lovely “I Just Won Barrow-Downs Werewolf And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt!!!" t-shirt. Unfortunately, due to increased demand, the Shoppe has had to end the sale. T-shirts are available for the full price of 800 dirhams.

(And before you ask about special discounts for thoroughly beating the Rex et Basilius for Life of the Victorious Werewolves, I’m afraid that it is completely out of the question. We almost had the power turned off last week and we need every bit of money we can get our claws on, especially if we have to keep expanding the building. :p)

Now…

Slow down folks! I think we have a number of issues that need to be ironed out before we start worrying about starting the next game.

How about allowing villagers to write one "letter" per game.

In other words, on a night that a villager is scared of being slain, that villager can pm the game moderator with a "letter" addressed to the townspeople sharing his final thoughts and wishing them well.

Now, if you send the mod a letter and you are not killed you cannot ever send a letter again. You only get one chance.

This might be an idea to try. However, if we do implement it, I’d like to ask that there to be a ban placed on people coming over to this thread and giving their last words and so forth after they’ve been killed. I don’t like this practice, I think it is unfair to the people still playing and I also think that it is inevitably going to lead to trouble sooner or later. I’d like to have it stopped before we have a game ruined because somebody said too much on this thread.

Secondly, I think that the Werewolves should be prohibited from talking behind the scenes (by PM) during the day. They can plan a strategy for the day during their night-time discussions but to give them the opportunity to coordinate what they do during the day as the day unfolds does, I think, give them rather too much power.

I’m not so sure I agree with this. However, that may just be that bit of pro-werewolf bias I have creeping into my thinking.

Also, when I play "mafia" (same thing as werewolf) my friends and I have a non-participation rule that I really like. If someone goes through a day period without making an accusation, defending someone, or putting forth a theory, that person is automatically killed at the end of the round (after the lynching).

The moderator simply says "You didn't say enough- you're dead".

Here we have a very difficult issue. In principle, I agree that there should be some rule about participation. However, no matter how I look at implementation I only see problems.

First of all, I think there has to be a clearly defined standard of what the cutoff point would be. I think this standard should be beyond the control of whoever is occupying the position of mod. Obviously, if The Barrow Wight is modding the game he can do whatever he jolly well pleases, but even at that I’d ask him for the sake of the balance and playability of the game to have a clear and understandable standard. I mean all sorts of bad things could happen if the rule is spongy and largely up to the subjective opinion of the mod…nasty arguments and such if a questionable participation kill costs one side the game (and questionable kills would happen if the rule is vague).

Then the problem becomes, how to set the standard. Setting a minimum post count seems dreadfully arbitrary, but judging the content of a post can be painfully subjective. I mean somebody could be trying a strategy of some sort to draw out a werewolf or lay low as a werewolf by saying little and being non-committal. Are they going to be axed because of the way they are trying to play?

I think this issue requires some serious discussion before it is accepted.

And I still think we should add masons to the mix. That could balance the power.

I’m kind of in agreement with the phantom on this. However, I’m not sure we should call them “masons” on the general principle of avoiding the names of organizations that actually exist in the real world.

P.S. Hookbill’s movie card is absolutely hilarious!!!

Hookbill the Goomba

06-14-2005, 09:42 AM

Thanks Kuruharan, glad someone likes it.

Just a quick question. How long do we intend to keep these games going? And, if we end up with many Tol in Gaurthor threads, will the mods move it to a separate section like they did with the chapter-by-chapter discussions?

the phantom

06-14-2005, 11:37 AM

As with the last game, count me in unless there is not enough room.

About my idea for letters, Kuru said-
This might be an idea to try. However, if we do implement it, I’d like to ask that there to be a ban placed on people coming over to this thread and giving their last words and so forth after they’ve been killed. I don’t like this practice, I think it is unfair to the people still playing and I also think that it is inevitably going to lead to trouble sooner or later. I’d like to have it stopped before we have a game ruined because somebody said too much on this thread.
I agree with that.

I also agree that werewolves should be allowed to talk during the day.

And yes, the non-participation rule would be touchy. In real life it's rather easy, because the people I play with are all friends and if I toss them out they don't fight with me. If someone new is playing with us and they object, I just glare at them and say something like "Stop whining, you're out."

That probably wouldn't go over so well here.

But I'd still like to have such a rule. Could anyone suggest guidelines? Maybe... 1) must vote, 2) must post once other than their vote, 3) must accuse someone or defend someone or significantly bolster someone else's attack or defense.

And I'm glad you like the "masons" idea. That would definitely help the villagers a bit. But yes, we would want a name other than "masons". Perhaps "elf friends"?

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 11:42 AM

phantom, I'd accept your non-participation motion if you let people say when they had a leave of absence.

The "elf-friends" sound cool-we could even make them simply "elves"-but what do they do?

mormegil

06-14-2005, 12:03 PM

With respect to killing off non-participating members I agree that we need strict rules that we need to adhere to. We do, however, need to leave the quiet approach a valid strategy for wolves to use. So my idea is as follows

1. Need to vote daily with a one exception rule due to RL concerns not simply strategy. The strategy issue would need to be self-governed but I know that we could handle that.

2. There should be one post a day beside the vote. Now I don't think it is needed to have a definate accusation of defense but we ought to be suspicious of those who don't.

I don't think that the wolves should have the DAY to use to strategize as this gives them great advantage to use what somebody says in the debate against them. I think they need to come up with a general strategy and improvise as the day progesses.

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 12:03 PM

Additional rules will be posted at the beginning of the game itself, so don't worry about trawling through this threafd if you're busy.

More rules:

Wolves should not PM by DAY - It would be quite suspicious in an actual village if three of the villagers just wandered off for a little chat in a corner...

Non-participation: Anybody who doesn't post for 24 hours will be killed automatically, with the exception of telling the others in advance on this thread. They must post more than just a vote (if they choose to vote) per DAY, though his could be as little as a short explanation.

Concerning Seer-dreaming on the first night, Elf-friends and letters, I'm not really bothered here, but if there is widespread support for the addition of these, I'll put them in. They will be implemented if more than half the villagers support them (giving no opinion will count as a no).

Edit: I don't think voting should be made compulsory, it could deduct from strategy. As for the "1 post plus voting post" - that has been put in above.

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 12:32 PM

Non-participation: Anybody who doesn't post for 24 hours will be killed automatically, with the exception of telling the others in advance on this thread. They must post more than just their vote (if they choose to vote).

While I realize this may seem like I'm backtracking, but I don't favor allowing people who are currently playing in the game to post in this thread for any reason, even after they are dead. If they have to take an extended leave from the game for whatever reason then they can just announce in the game thread that they are taking a little trip. While I'm not in favor of trying to force people to play a certain way, I do think that they should only have a limited time to be on said trip. I don't like people who sign up to play and then take off and barely show up. It is hard enough on the villagers as it is.

I think that it is also important that whatever we decide on this issue, we either make sure that everybody agrees with it or The Barrow Wight validates it so that we can make this a general rule above the control of whatever mod happens to be running the game at that time.

I'm not sure "Elf-Friends" is the best term for it either. I would suggest that we call them "Lambengolmor" after Feanor's Masters of Languages that he founded in Aman and who followed him into exile. Pengolod was one of them who stayed until about the end of the Second Age. However, "Lambengolmor" is a rather clumsy and awkward word at the best of times. Unfortunately, it is the only Tolkienish thing I can think of to call them...aside from "Gwaith-in-Mirdain" which is scarcely less awkward. That could be just the “Mirdain”, but I'm not sure we want to go down that road. The villagers have enough troubles already.

EDIT: If we are starting on Friday I won't be able to play because I'm going on a trip for Father's Day and I don't want to be hypocritical.

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 12:34 PM

I support the see-dream, the letters and the elf-friends...though once more, I would like to know what the latter do! Could someone drop me a PM, perhaps, to avoid crowding up the thread?

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 12:44 PM

I would like to know what the latter do! Could someone drop me a PM, perhaps, to avoid crowding up the thread?

Actually, I think this is probably something that may deserve a little more discussion, and open discussion too.

The idea behind the secret society (whatever we're going to call them) is to create at least some people in the village who know that another person is innocent. That way the two of them can talk together and be able to trust each other. They will also know that if somebody starts attacking them for some reason, the attacker may be a werewolf. Anyway, the useful possibilities fall along that line.

Basically the goal is to try to provide the villagers a clue, something that has been a tad lacking thus far.

However, we will also have to discuss when they can PM each other. I don't agree with the idea that werewolves cannot PM during the day, but if they can't PM during the day I suppose fairness dictates that the society members cannot either.

(grumble...don't like this limit on discussion business...)

Lalaith

06-14-2005, 12:52 PM

Personally I don't think villagers should be able to trust each other.

But if we are going to have a mason/elf-friend thing, perhaps it could be something to do with osanwe-kente?

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 12:54 PM

Kuru, it doesn't make sense to me that villagers can wander off from acusing one another to privately discuss things by themselves. It would deduct from realism... *Realises this is a game with werewolves in it. Abruptly shuts up about realism*
Again, lots of support for day-time PMs (for werewolves or the secret-society, if the latter is even implemented) would result in me putting them in.

Players will be banned from posting here until the game ends, agreed.

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 12:55 PM

I like the Mirdain idea, but if others don't, here are some alternatives:

-Fellowship
-Rangers
-Bounders
-Blood-brothers
-or even Istari (don't like that much myself)

I think it would work to have the Mirdain PM only in the day and the Werewolves at night, symbolising their separate spheres of power and influence.

Shelob

06-14-2005, 01:09 PM

"Wolves should not PM by DAY - It would be quite suspicious in an actual village if three of the villagers just wandered off for a little chat in a corner..." ~TGWBS

I understand the reasoning behind this and agree with it to an extent, but I would side rather more with Kuru and state that I do dislike it...

However, should majority rule that werewolves cannot PM during the day I would like to make one plea on behalf of werewolves for whom 'NIGHT' conflicts with their 'Real Life Day'...If a werewolf knows that they're not going to be on for the 'NIGHT' phase they should be allowed to PM night stategies ONLY to their fellow werewolves ...I know this is based on the honour system and that it's therefore open to abuse, but at least then the unfortunate werewolf can sleep/work/go-to-school in (relative) peace knowing that they were able to voice an opinion...(I would suggest they're only allowed one PM, but that's even more dependent upon the honour system)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-14-2005, 01:14 PM

Players should be banned from posting things like "Oh, now I'm dead!" but I think that they should still be allowed to ask questions about technicalities or other gameplaying aspects.

Here and now I want to highlight the mistakes I made in moderating the last game (only two!) just to try and help future moderators. Don't overlook anything!

1) Even after Saucepan Man suggested I watch out for use of terms 'his' 'he' 'her' and 'she' I still went and made a mistake. Something about the Seer and her dreams. A couple of observant players notified me very quickly, for which I am grateful!

2) I also forgot to pick a Guardian! So I had to randomly choose one of the ordinary villagers and PM her back to let her know! Thankfully there was no confusion.

And Saucy made reference to my 'flair' on the other thread.... :rolleyes: :D

Also, tgwbs, be sure to set aside plenty of time when starting the game and assigning roles; it takes a lot longer than you'd think!

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-14-2005, 01:19 PM

Another tip, this time about the Hunter.

Because Azaelia couldn't get on the internet regularly, I suggested that she did the following: every time she got on, she PMd me with her current choice of villager to kill should she be lynched in the evening or slain in the night.

This meant that I could post her death scene without waiting for her to contact me. I think it worked out really well.

For anyone who's interested, her original suspicions were Saucepan Man and the phantom before eventually making a great choice - the werewolf Holbytlass.

Esgallhugwen

06-14-2005, 01:21 PM

I would like to participate in the next game if there is still enough room.

Mormegil took my idea, I wanted to be an undertaker type character, oh well great minds think alike ;)

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 01:43 PM

Don't worry Eomer, I'll have the majority of the first post written out before Friday, which should just leave PMing. Perhaps the biggest worry is if we do decide the Seer should dream on NIGHT 1, but I'll cross that barrier if and when I get to it. :p

Thanks for the advice. I've modded one game before, and was very careful about pronouns. However, perhaps even more embarassingly than you forgetting a Guardian, I forgot who the Seer was!

Luckily the experience means I'll be extremely organised this time round - honest. ;)

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 01:49 PM

Personally I don't think villagers should be able to trust each other.

Yeah, but up until such time as the villagers can actually win a game or two, I think our rule tinkering efforts need to tend toward their benefit. Eventually if the werewolves keep winning at this pace people are going to stop playing because the game is unbalanced, and that would be no fun.

I think that they should still be allowed to ask questions about technicalities or other gameplaying aspects.

But how much of that has really been going on? And how necessary is it for people to be asking technical questions during the game anyway? It is not like the rules are really all that hard to understand. Although the cursed villager thing probably did need to be ironed out. My complaint is more about the friviolous chatting that seems to go on...

Fellowship
-Rangers
-Bounders
-Blood-brothers
-or even Istari

Definitely not Istari (although the concept is certainly similar... ;) )

You do remember who the Mirdain were, don't you?

I do like the idea that if there has to be a limit on discussion, perhaps the werewolves and the whatchamacallits (hey, there's a neat name) would do it during different cycles of the game.

AbercrombieOfRohan

06-14-2005, 01:54 PM

How many of these mason/ranger/fellowship/Mirdain people are we talking about? Would they have the same amount as the werewolves (3)?

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 01:58 PM

Only two, there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice.

Or at least that was always my understanding. I suppose it could be played with varying numbers...

Anguirel

06-14-2005, 02:39 PM

Know who the Mirdain were! Pah! Such condescension...of course I do, and that's why I was scrabbling for more "positive" nomenclature...

As soon as I have found someone to wield me, O Regal Dwarven Shade, you'll have a duel on your hands!

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 03:06 PM

Just checking. Never can tell. People will say virtually anything... :p ;)

mormegil

06-14-2005, 03:16 PM

Mormegil took my idea, I wanted to be an undertaker type character, oh well great minds think alike ;)

I would gladly yield my position and become something more appropriate like the village idiot :)

Or I could simply be the person in charge of cleaning our streets of the mess left behind by horses, werewolves and what not.

the guy who be short

06-14-2005, 03:24 PM

It's come to my attention that next Sunday is Father's Day. It's also the day of an exam for Celuien (I believe) and the date of an inescapable wedding for me. So:

Recruitment will carry on up until 6:00pm GMT (1:00pm EST, 12:00am Central) on Saturday 18th June.

If we decide the Seer should dream on the first night, the Seer will then receive his/her role and should PM me before the start of the game concerning who s/he wants to dream about.
If we decide the Seer shouldn't dream on the first night, s/he will received his/her role at the same time as everybody else at 4:00pm (11:00am EST, 10:00am Central) GMT on Monday 20th June.

The first DAY should then start at 6:00pm GMT (1:00pm EST, 12:00am Central) on Monday 20th June.

This should allow everybody to 1) participate in the game properly, 2) enjoy a nice Father's Day and 3) reacquaint themselves with all those quaint notions such as sleep and rest. :)

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 05:33 PM

Still can't play. I won't have regular internet access again until Tuesday. :(

littlemanpoet

06-14-2005, 07:50 PM

I don't know enough about Mirdain (or whatever but I like that name best) or letters and all the rest, but I will leap into the dark and say I'm the village butcher who loves to speak in doggerel. By the second day everybody'll want to lynch me for the doggerel instead of suspicion!

I like the Seer first night idea.

No dead people commentary on the original thread, makes sense to me.

I'm so new to this all that I don't think I could keep track of extras like special roles and letters and all that, so I'm going to vote "no" on all the other extras that have been mentioned.

Sorry. :(

The Saucepan Man

06-14-2005, 07:54 PM

Although I can't play in the next game, I would like to participate in the future, so here are some thoughts on the ideas raised on rule changes etc.

I agree that, given the trend of our first three games, any rule changes should favour the Villagers. I am not sold on the Scribe idea, as he or she would be in no different position than any other normal Villager during the game, and so the death letter is just as likely to be wrong as it is right (if not more so), which might simply end up confusing the daytime discussions (which the innocent Villagers are perfectly capable of doing themselves, thank you ;) ).

I like the Mason idea, since having two Villagers who trust each other and can bounce ideas off each other will go some way towards mitigating the Villagers' lack of knowledge (and therefore the random accusations). I agree that these players should only be able to PM each other during the day, whereas the Werewolves should only PM each other at night. I still think that the Werewolves are powerful enough wothout letting them coordinate efforts during the day too.

Does the name of the role have to be specifically Tolkien-orientated, given that the others are not? Something in keeping with the medaeval/folklore atmosphere of the game that suggests a connection between the two should suffice. Although all I can come up with at the moment is the "Twins". Or how about Tweedledum and Tweedledee? :D

I am edgy about killing people off for non-participation. At most, players should only be summarily killed if they don't post at all during a day without good excuse, rather than forcing them to make a positive assertion or to vote. Otherwise, this compromises the "quiet" strategy that worked so well in the last game. And there might be perfectly good game-related reasons (for both innocents and Wolves) for not voting on a day.

I agree that players should not post on this thread while playing the game, even to raise questions about the rules (which can be done by PM to the moderator). The reason that I posted a warning about this earlier in the thread was that I felt some posts were getting dangerously close to possibly influencing the game. I don't have a problem with people making a short post following their death (there is quite an urge to do so ;) ), provided that they avoid giving any indication of their thoughts on who might be guilty or innocent. I think that people can be trusted to stick to this proviso.

Finally, someone mentioned the possibility of starting a thread to set out all the rules. I suggest that this is best addressed by the moderator including all the applicable rules in the first post for a game. This is probably best done by cutting and pasting rather than by giving links (as I did), since earlier rules can be superseded in subsequent games (such as the tied voting rule).

Oddwen

06-14-2005, 08:00 PM

I would gladly yield my position and become something more appropriate like the village idiot

Bah! Now ye've taken my idea! ;)

I really like the idea of the Masons/Elf-friends, and I'd be willing to play with the scribe/letters - although would we introduce both these roles/things in the same game?

One role that sounds really interesting is the Werehamster.

Werehamster - This character is on its own side, fighting both the Werewolves and the humans. During the night phase, he has his own phase and can kill someone just like the Werewolves do, causing two deaths in one night. If the werewolves try to kill him, he’s safe; but if the Seer points to him, he dies. The Werehamster wins only if he is the sole remaining person in a game.
This would work best in a larger game...though we'd have to call it the "Sméagol" or something. Perhaps it could only kill on every other night. Though, most likely in another game.

And a question: say the Guardian protects person A. The Werewolves choose to kill person B, who happens to be the Hunter. If the Hunter has chosen person A as their intended target, is the Guardian able to protect person A from the Hunter? Or is the Guardian only effective against Werewolves?

Anyway - I'd like to sign up for the next game. And I'd like to be...the village idiot!

littlemanpoet

06-14-2005, 08:16 PM

Seems to me that if we're going to call the game "Tol-in-Gaurhoth", then we can call the two allies 'Elves', and they can do osanwe-kenta using PMs. After all, this is a Tolkien dedicated site, and the Legendarium is rife with names to pick from. .... that is, if there's a majority in favor of it.

I'd be interested to see if these characters seem "groupy" enough to get lynched by the innocent villagers, so maybe we don't want them to be Elves after all ... um ... unless we let whoever wants to be, be Elves? Maybe they could just be Dunedain? Rangers? Ah, heck, I dunno.

Kuruharan

06-14-2005, 10:39 PM

I don't have a problem with people making a short post following their death (there is quite an urge to do so

Yeah, but what is the point of this? Just to announce, "I'm dead." Anybody who cares already knows that. I think that sooner or later if this keeps up it is just bound to lead to trouble.

I think a goal for naming the masons/mirdain/whatchamacallits should be to have it as non-specific as possible. I mean honestly, do you think a character like mine is going to make a good elf or elf-friend. Just imagine the lynching...

The Hangman pulled the leaver. Kuruharan's body dropped down with a snap. Suddenly, Kuruharan grew two feet, lost his beard, his ears got all pointy, and he got nauseatingly pretty!! "Oh-no!! We've killed our Elf...Dwarf...thing," wailed the villagers.

That just doesn't sound good. :p ;)

(Mutter, mutter...dumb pointy-ears...who needs 'em anyway?)

Maybe we should just call them "Lorekeepers" or something simple (and non-specific) like that.

the phantom

06-14-2005, 10:47 PM

I want masons. Call them whatever you want.

I definitely want the seer to dream the first night.

As far as my role in the next game.... hmm... maybe I'll be an arrogant healer.

mormegil

06-14-2005, 11:56 PM

I haven't heard from anyone else but I thought that the mason's wouldn't be named at death similar to the cursed villager. But just a thought.

Nilpaurion Felagund

06-15-2005, 12:37 AM

Can *wheeze* I *hack, cough* join?

Sorry. *deep breath* Had to run to get here.

And what role will you play.

Oh, as usual, when I play "Killers." The suspect. :cool:

Kuruharan

06-15-2005, 06:40 AM

I thought that the mason's wouldn't be named at death similar to the cursed villager.

The masons should be named at death. Otherwise, how do they establish their credibility with the villagers?

Evisse the Blue

06-15-2005, 06:55 AM

I want to play too, (again). I'd like to be the baker - fortune cookie maker. :D

Re: Seer first night idea: yep, I think the Seer should dream the first night

Re: Wolves Pm-ing each other only at night: yep, also agree with this.

Re: Masons/Elf-friends/Twins: mmhm, yeah, okay. Although...I can imagine how these people might draw suspicion upon themselves from the villagers for all the wrong reasons, thus complicating the matters further.

Re: killing people off for non-participation: I support this. In case this is too harsh, let it be at least killing off people who don't vote. Because it is very difficult to make an impression -guilty or nay- of someone who doesn't say anything.

Mithalwen

06-15-2005, 07:00 AM

Surely the simplest solution is to let the seer, hunter and guardian know each other's identities and so work together to protect the villagers as the wolves work together to destroy them. That makes good and evil even at the start. And stops all this "What happens if the hunter takes down the guarded, cursed villager while the seer is dreaming about them type of hypothesis.... :rolleyes:

Celuien

06-15-2005, 07:25 AM

I'm not entirely sold on the Scribe role for the same reasons as The Saucepan Man.

On the participation rule, I think that if someone suddenly disappears without notice, they should be a candidate for lynching, but I'm not comfortable with requiring a vote or specific type of post for the reason that it restricts strategy.

I like Mithalwen's idea of letting the seer, hunter and guardian work together.

littlemanpoet

06-15-2005, 08:50 AM

I want to play too, (again). I'd like to be the baker - fortune cookie maker

Cool! Now all we need is a candlestick maker. :D

I do like Mithalwen's idea, so I second that one.

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-15-2005, 09:08 AM

Mithalwen is in this game???? Ooooooh...I might have to enlist again after all....

*Fordim ponders*

The Saucepan Man

06-15-2005, 09:30 AM

Surely the simplest solution is to let the seer, hunter and guardian know each other's identities and so work together to protect the villagers as the wolves work together to destroy them.But wouldn't this tip the balance the other way? Three Villagers who know each other to be innocent, can discuss their thoughts and have other special abilities which they can co-ordinate seems to be giving the Villagers too much power. If the Seer was to identify a Werewolf early on, the Hunter would be guaranteed a Werewolf kill when he or she dies, which rather takes half the fun out of it.

I prefer the idea of two separate players being the Masons/Elf-friends/Twins, since this will provide some benefit to the Villlagers, but not enough to tip the balance against the Werewolves. It will also give a greater number of players an additional role, which I see as a plus.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-15-2005, 09:33 AM

As far as my role in the next game.... hmm... maybe I'll be an arrogant healer.
Hey, that role sounds familiar. I think I remember playing that part in game two. ;)

Anywho, I want in. Now that I'm back (for those who didn't know, I was away), I'm done with work, and I'm looking at quite a lot more free time... Yeah.

My part shall be that of the mysterious artist who prefers silently sketching in corners to hanging out with the rest of the village.

mormegil

06-15-2005, 09:35 AM

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-15-2005, 09:50 AM

the guy who be short
Azaelia of Willowbottom
littlemanpoet
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Anguirel
Saurreg
mormegil
Lalaith
Celuien
the phantom
Esgallhugwen
Oddwen
Nilpaurion Felagund
Evisse the Blue
Feanor of the Peredhil

Mithalwen (I think)
Fordim (?)
Kuru (really wants to play but perhaps cannot?)

I think it's 15 definites so far. Verily, a grand feast could be made!

As for roles, I shall be a sea-faring rapscallion. :D

Saurreg

06-15-2005, 09:56 AM

Request: before the next round starts, can we have a compilation post on all the different character status agreed upon and the way they are supposed to be played? I for one would not like to break a rule unwittingly or be set upon by equally misguided fellow players.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-15-2005, 10:03 AM

I'm on your side here Saurreg. These new roles and rules are making my head spin!

Maybe I'm just not bored enough by the game as it is.

Hookbill the Goomba

06-15-2005, 10:04 AM

*Violently gets the attention of Eomer*

Did I not ask to be included? :confused:

I'm going to go and live in a little cave for a few years... It's all you’re fault!

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-15-2005, 10:07 AM

I noticed a post but I didn't see an offer of play, you violent so-and-so. ;) Maybe I didn't look far back enough.

Don't mock my list, I was only trying to help!

*sobs*

Kuruharan

06-15-2005, 10:09 AM

I agree plus with the guardian knowing who the seer is puts the seer at substantially less risk. There needs to be that risk to make it interesting.

This is exactly why that can't be done. The guardian would never guard anybody but the seer. Why should they?

Kuru (really wants to play but perhaps cannot?)

I am definitely out for the next game if it starts next Monday.

Hookbill the Goomba

06-15-2005, 10:34 AM

It's okay Eomer... I found some cheese in this cave, so all is forgiven.

But just in case, this is my official asking to be included in the game. :)

Esgallhugwen

06-15-2005, 10:52 AM

There there Eomer it's all right *gives him a big hug*, and now that you know Hookbill wants to play it's all straightened out now. Right? ;)

I think since I probably won't be able to be the undertaker, that I'll be a seamstress instead (had to mend a pair of jeans which gave me the idea).

Mithalwen

06-15-2005, 11:02 AM

Mithalwen is in this game???? Ooooooh...I might have to enlist again after all....

*Fordim ponders*

No she isn't

Mithalwen

06-15-2005, 11:13 AM

But wouldn't this tip the balance the other way? Three Villagers who know each other to be innocent, can discuss their thoughts and have other special abilities which they can co-ordinate seems to be giving the Villagers too much power. If the Seer was to identify a Werewolf early on, the Hunter would be guaranteed a Werewolf kill when he or she dies, which rather takes half the fun out of it.

.

Well the Werewolves are guaranteed kills almost always so I don't have a problem with that. Also it would depend on the wolves attacking the hunter - I mean it is not as if the Hunter can make a preemptive strike. Also if there are separate masons the "ordinary" villagers will have to guess whether those seeming to work together are wolves or masons.. at least the hunter/guardian /seer trio can protect themselves a little. And they will have to be careful to be subtle.

Anyway I guess like "Mornington Crescent", various variations will develop and I may well enforce these rules if I ever get my chance at being dictator ... I mean moderator .... :rolleyes: And if the sheep don't like it.....

Anyway, DVWP, my attention out of work shall be focused mainly elsewhere for 2 weeks from Monday... (SW19):D

mormegil

06-15-2005, 11:17 AM

Nice list Eomer although we shouldn't consider TGWBS to be a player per se, being that he is the first to die and will be the moderator.

The Saucepan Man

06-15-2005, 11:24 AM

Also if there are separate masons the "ordinary" villagers will have to guess whether those seeming to work together are wolves or masons.. I doubt that the Masons would wish to make it too obvious that they are working together. I see them as having great potential to help the Villagers, provided that they play it right (although two "loudmouths" acting in concert could prove a disaster ... :rolleyes: :D ). In any event, the Guardian/Seer issue does, I thin, preclude all three of them working together. The Seer and the Hunter could feasibly work together, but I prefer the idea of any additional roles going to players who would otherwise merely be ordinary Villagers.

Shelob

06-15-2005, 11:28 AM

Maybe as a compromise between the hunter/guardian/seer combination and the 'mason' idea you could have just the hunter and guardian know each other...

the guardian wouldn't really want to protect the hunter because if the hunter's killed they stand a chance of getting a werewolf (so you don't run into the prob of the Guardian only protecting the person they know [seer])

Since it's only two it gives the same advantage of having two 'masons'...it just happens that they aren't ordinary villagers...

It's probably worth thinking about...

the phantom

06-15-2005, 11:38 AM

Let's not go overboard.

The villagers need a bit of help, not tons of help. Therefore, I don't think the seer, guardian, and hunter should be working together.

The addition of masons should do the trick just fine.

Well- that is if the village can manage to make it to day two with the seer still alive.

dancing spawn of ungoliant

06-15-2005, 11:51 AM

Is it too late for me to declare my willingness to join Werewolf IV? If the game starts next Monday, I'd be able to play. There seems to be quite many participants already, so I'll understand if there's no room left...
In case I can play, I'll be very originally a... housemaid. If anyone isn't a housemaid yet, that is. Maybe as a compromise between the hunter/guardian/seer combination and the 'mason' idea you could have just the hunter and guardian know each other...I think that's a good idea if you feel it's necessary to ease the villagers' job.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-15-2005, 11:51 AM

Forsooth, good sir. Let us stay very much onboard.

We want any victory for the villagers to be grand and magnificent, not presented to them.

Oddwen

06-15-2005, 12:14 PM

Just an idea...after the specific roles are chosen (werewolf, seer, hunter, etc.), what about then picking the two Masons? Then there's the possibility of someone having multiple roles.
Though you'd probably want to exclude Werewolves and the Seer from that list.

*shrugshrug* Just thinking *shrugshrug*

Edit: Oh yeah...if Nilp plays - will his alter-egoes count as two extra players? :p Heaven help us if we have five wolves. ;) Or three seers even! Yipe!

the guy who be short

06-15-2005, 12:20 PM

Well, things are moving incredibly fast. I just want to straighten out a few things:

Request: before the next round starts, can we have a compilation post on all the different character status agreed upon and the way they are supposed to be played? I for one would not like to break a rule unwittingly or be set upon by equally misguided fellow players.

Of course. This will be provided in the first post of the new thread. :)

I'm now going back through the thread and counting votes for all the new ideas we've had; expect a post shortly.

the guy who be short

06-15-2005, 12:52 PM

Due to overwhelming support, the Seer will dream on the first night and a secret-society will be introduced. The Scribe has generated little interest and will not be used.

Nobody will have double roles - the secret-society will otherwise be ordinary villagers, as opposed to including the Seer, Guardian, etc.

Players should not discuss previous villages at all.

Wolves can PM each other only by NIGHT, the secret-society can PM each other only by DAY.

Players should not post on this thread, even after death. If they need to go somewhere and miss part of the game, they should announce a short trip in the game thread.

If votes are tied, all nominees will be lynched.

If a player does not make at least one post per DAY (however short) they will be automatically killed, with the exception of informing the others of their absence beforehand. Voting will not be compulsory - the post does not need to include a vote.

That seems to be everything. Rest assured that this will all be repeated in the opening post of the new game.

Debate should now focus on the name of the new secret society, which seems to be about all there is left to decide.

Anguirel

06-15-2005, 01:03 PM

Now, the secret society...I still like Mirdain, despite the connotations...

Perhaps Outlaws? Thinking Barahir-types rather than Turin-types.

mormegil

06-15-2005, 01:06 PM

I like all of the rules.

I would agree with a name such as rangers but I also thought it might be fun to call them the Shirriffs. Being that they have no real power to speak of but they can trust each other.

Holbytlass

06-15-2005, 02:37 PM

I know I'm not in this game, but if the name of the secret-society is to be used in all future games, I second mormegil's shirrifs.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-15-2005, 02:44 PM

I'll third Shirriffs. Even though it's more of a hobbit thing than a Men thing, it's still a cute nod.

Anguirel

06-15-2005, 02:46 PM

I'm not mad on Shirrifs, due to the Hobbitishness, but I've no serious objection...

Ainaserkewen

06-15-2005, 03:12 PM

In the original game I'm used to, the Seers (we always had two) were called Sheriffs.

littlemanpoet

06-15-2005, 03:14 PM

I like "shirriffs" too.

the phantom

06-15-2005, 03:17 PM

Would there be any objection to referring to the "masons" as "those-two-people-who-work-together-that-are-like-masons". Perhaps we could call them "ttpwwttalm" for short.

Or how about naming them after a famous inseparable pair from right here on the Downs- "Phan-Feas".

Ainaserkewen

06-15-2005, 03:31 PM

You're going to keep bringing that up aren't you phantom...

This is your immortality I suppose.

Esgallhugwen

06-15-2005, 08:29 PM

I agree with either Rangers or Shiriffs. I'm more partial to Rangers though it sounds cooler in my humble opinion. And it seems to suit the darker atmosphere that the game will no doubt have.

Kuruharan

06-15-2005, 09:03 PM

And it seems to suit the darker atmosphere that the game will no doubt have.

We are trying to overcome this. ;)

Anguirel

06-16-2005, 12:17 AM

I'm up for Rangers. I mean, who do you trust to help stop the werewolves...irritating, officious little midgets, or tall, dark, grey-eyed hunks?

Probably neither, actually...

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 07:15 AM

Shiriffs would be quite amusing. Seeing as they have to be secret, we'll be introducing the first Secret Police to Middle-Earth :eek:.

Anguirel

06-16-2005, 07:28 AM

Of course, in Narnia Jadis' secret police are...you've got it...Wolves!

Saurreg

06-16-2005, 07:46 AM

Then may I propose we replace the hunter with the ranger with the exception that if the ranger is sent to hang, he cannot take along another player to the neitherworld?

And I shall be furrier.

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 07:53 AM

Then may I propose we replace the hunter with the ranger with the exception that if the ranger is sent to hang, he cannot take along another player to the neitherworld?

I like the idea of calling him a Ranger, but I think he should retain his right to kill when hanged. Or lynched, rather. You know, I never liked the idea of hanging... too simple. I think I'll be bringing back some real, good old lynching in this game :p

Saurreg

06-16-2005, 08:05 AM

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-16-2005, 08:05 AM

You have my utmost support for that tgwbs. I wanted to lynch Holbytlass with pitchforks and fire, but the Hunter business got in the way. :D

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 08:13 AM

So can we agree that the hunter will be replaced by a duo of rangers who can coordinate at night?

The only addtional advantage I see is that at most only two more players would know that each other is not a lycan. Fair enough for this large number of players we have.

But when happens if our trio of wolves make the mistake of killing off the rangers. That would leave only one hound left. Is there a need to increase the number of wolves at the start? Or the number of cursed villagers?

I don't really think we need to alter anything, and don't see any real reason to insert a new Ranger, or limit their power. I'm thinking perhaps two groups of innocent villagers who know one another could unbalance the game.

What do the rest of you guys think?

And do not worry, my dear Eomer, there will be fire and pitchforks aplenty. :D

Holbytlass

06-16-2005, 08:24 AM

. I wanted to lynch Holbytlass with pitchforks and fire...:D
Ouch!! why.. WHY.. WWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYY!!

mormegil

06-16-2005, 08:24 AM

No I think the additions that have been noted are sufficient and adding another hunter wouldn't be prudent. I think we need to give the villagers a little bit more of an advantage than the currently have I don't think we need to tip the scales needlessly in their favor. Although I see no reason not to call the hunter a ranger (keeping more in line with Tolkien)

Saurreg

06-16-2005, 08:25 AM

Ok. Suits me fine.

And just so I get it right; every night the guardian sends the mod a name he/she wants to protect. Rite?

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 08:46 AM

Oh, and feel free to suggest new names for the Guardian, Cursed Villager and Seer as well :).

EDIT: Yes, Saurreg, that's correct. The Hunter should also PM me each night with somebody to kill if they get killed... it's just easier that way.

mormegil

06-16-2005, 09:02 AM

Seer can stay as there is Malbeth the seer
Hunter could be changed to Ranger or Dunedain
Guardian--Wizard? Istari? I don't know

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 09:06 AM

I see cases for both the Hunter and Guardian to be called Rangers. Perhaps the Hunter should remain so (after all, Middle Earth was full of hunters) and the Guardian should be renamed the Ranger, as they protect the people of Middle Earth in secret.

mormegil

06-16-2005, 09:16 AM

Okay I can agree with that but I'm still perplexed over the cursed villager.

Perhaps we could call him Turin ;) :p

Anguirel

06-16-2005, 09:19 AM

I too was thinking Turin!

I like Ranger for the Guardian, and Hunter is fine.

Are the "masons" decided as shirriffs, then?

In the next game, incidentally, I would like to be a travelling judge, a brehon, schooled in many rhetorical arts and succoured wherever I go in exchange for helping settle disputes...

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 09:27 AM

The Seer will remain the Seer.
The Hunter will remain the Hunter.
The Guardian will be called the Ranger.
The Masons will be called the Shirriffs.
The Cursed Villager will probably not be called Turin. :p Honestly, a Turin in every village would probably bring Middle-Earth crashing down.

Anguirel

06-16-2005, 09:33 AM

It could be a new phrase. "Somewhere a village is missing its Turin!"

Esgallhugwen

06-16-2005, 10:27 AM

How about calling the Cursed Villager a Wight or Draug Bait. I believe Draug means wolf.

Just suggestions. ;)

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 11:09 AM

I'd be quite glad if my village was missing its Turin, really :rolleyes:.

I've had a quick look at some Quenya dictionaries, and from the limited Quenya I know: Colindo Nwalyaron, which I believe is "Bearer of Torment."
Erm... bit cumbersome.

What about Hecilo/Hecile, "Forsaken by Friends"? Doesn't really work, seeing as the Cursed forsakes his/her friends rather than vice versa.

Uherenya, "Unfortunate"?

Marta, "Fated," though I believe that's usually an adjective?

Uvalin, "Unhappy"?

Well, what can I say, Quenya dictionaries are simply oodles of fun. :D Any of these tickle anybody's pickle? I like Uvalin, though I'm sure somebody can come up with something much better.

Lalaith

06-16-2005, 11:40 AM

I can see why you wouldn't want Turin, but what about one of his pseudonyms?
Agarwaen (the bloodstained) or Neithan (the wronged).
I quite like Neithan. After all, the poor cursed villager has been wronged by fate, hasn't he?

Anguirel

06-16-2005, 11:45 AM

I love Uvalin, Agarwaen, and Neithan. I think Uvalin sounds most wolfy though.

dancing spawn of ungoliant

06-16-2005, 11:50 AM

Why can't the cursed villager be called the "Cursed Villager"? I think it's the most characteristic name for him/her. Yes, yes, I'm just being so boring but at least it's much less a mouthful than Colindo Nwalyaron, for example.

If you wan't to rename some roles, how about if the Hunter was called Wolver?

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-16-2005, 12:04 PM

I find myself in agreement with you, Spawn. While I'm all for renaming the Guardian "Ranger", I can't help but think that we are needlessly complicating the only part of the game that shouldn't be that way.

I've got to admit though... the Phan-Feas just makes me laugh. :D

mormegil

06-16-2005, 12:18 PM

I don't think the point is to needlessly complicate things, rather it's to set our environment a bit more in accord with Tolkien's world and by renaming we are capturing that a bit.

the guy who be short

06-16-2005, 01:36 PM

I'm tempted to make myself look like a complete idiot by agreeing with both, opposing points of view.
Infact, I think I will.
I agree with both points of view.

On the one hand, more Tolkien can never be bad, but on the other, it would be a lot easier just to keep the names the same and avoid confusion with experienced players. Then again, with time, new names will be accepted.

The main problem I see with renaming the Curséd Villager (ah, I like that...) is that there doesn't seem to actually be anything we could rename it as. Turin wouldn't work. Making up a random Quenya name wouldn't work.
So, if we can think of anything good, we'll change it. If not, I'm not hugely bothered really. :p

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-16-2005, 01:45 PM

renaming the Curséd Villager (ah, I like that...) is that there doesn't seem to actually be anything we could rename it as.
It's true. Although I have nothing against adding the little " ' " to it, cursed villager is so concise and appropriate. Why change a name that is already great?

The Saucepan Man

06-16-2005, 05:49 PM

Why change a name that is already great?I agree. Why change any of the names? They all work and set the right tone.

Too much tinkering at the edges methinks.

Azaelia of Willowbottom

06-16-2005, 07:31 PM

Hi! This is my official registration for Tol-in-Gaurhoth IV. The last game was so much fun...my only regret being that I didn't post more!

So, this time, with that pesky thing called school out of my way, I will be able to participate more fully this time around...

I would like my new role to be village seamstress. It's very important, after all: Where would the villagers get their clothing without one? :D

Can't wait for it to start!

Ironically, if the game begins on Monday the 20th, I may not be able to make an appearance...I have plans for a movie trip with one of my friends. If it had started on the 17th, as I believe I read in a much earlier post, I would have been able to make it with no problem. *siigh* I'd hate to miss the first day...AGAIN! :( If I can't make it for day one, should I even bother joining up at all?

Esgallhugwen

06-16-2005, 10:00 PM

Sorry, Azaelia, I believe I have first dibs on seamstress. As you'll note in one of my earlier posts, too many great minds I wanted to be the undertaker but Mormegil beat me to it. Everyone seems to be beating everyone and the game hasn't even started yet. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I agree with keeping Cursed Villager (or Curséd Villager), I guess since no one seemed to acknowledge my ideas. Everything else is absolutely fabulous.

And just to make everyone happy and because of my gushing generosity, I'll be the candle maker, so that Azaelia can be the seamstress. ;)

What say you?

the guy who be short

06-17-2005, 05:37 AM

So, Cursed (or Curséd) Villager it is.

Azaelia, remember that each DAY lasts 24 hours. If you can't make it at 6pm on the 20th, you have 24 more hours to get your say in there.

Esgallhugwen, I believe we needed a candlestick maker. In any case, the last thing we want in our pleasant little village is a Seamstress' Guild ;)( to those of you who read Prachett).

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-17-2005, 07:57 AM

Storyland didn't have:

a butcher
a baker
a candlestick-maker
a cleaner
a farmer
a postman
any security whatsoever
and not a single motown disco!

It's a wonder anyone wanted to live there.

Saurreg

06-17-2005, 08:13 AM

Rat-catcher. You forgot rat-catcher. The most important occupation in Storyland after a clerical office.

Azaelia of Willowbottom

06-17-2005, 09:32 AM

Azaelia, remember that each DAY lasts 24 hours. If you can't make it at 6pm on the 20th, you have 24 more hours to get your say in there.

You're right, I completely forgot about that.. *blush* :o Ok, If I can't be a seamstress (sorry, I didn't realize it was taken), I would like to be a baker, if that's all right! I can't wait to start!

Lalaith

06-17-2005, 10:21 AM

I'll be a wet-nurse.
I'll be up and about a lot at night tending my little charges, and able to keep an eye open for suspicious activities....

Esgallhugwen

06-17-2005, 10:28 AM

Quoted from myself
And just to make everyone happy and because of my gushing generosity, I'll be the candle maker, so that Azaelia can be the seamstress.

Eomer of the Rohirrim
a butcher
a baker
a candlestick-maker
a cleaner
a farmer
a postman
any security whatsoever
and not a single motown disco!

My dear Azaelia, I have chosen to become the candlestick-maker so that you can be the seamstress, seeing as the baker is already taken as well.

So I suppose we could now add seamstress and wet-nurse. Oh, and the rat catcher ;) All very important jobs.

Firefoot

06-17-2005, 09:45 PM

...and ready for another shot at this!

Is there a village healer/herbalist yet? If not, I'll be that. If so, I'll have to find something else... I don't really feel like rooting through all the posts to find everyone's occupations.

Anguirel

06-18-2005, 12:09 AM

A wet-nurse, eh? Well, I'll keep the tale of Romulus and Remus in mind...

the guy who be short

06-18-2005, 04:15 AM

The players so far are:

Anguirel (Travelling judge, a brehon)
Azaelia of Willowbottom (Seamstress)
Celuien (Weaver)
dancing spawn of ungoliant (Housemaid)
Eomer of the Rohirrim (Sea-faring rapscallion)
Esgallhugwen (Candlestick [and Candle] maker)
Evisse the Blue (Baker specialising in fortune cookies)
Feanor of the Peredhil (Mysterious Artist)
Firefoot (Fruit seller)
Hookbill the Goomba
Kath
Lalaith (Wet-nurse)
littlemanpoet (Butcher with a tendency to speak in doggerel)
Nilpaurion Felagund (Suspicious person)
Oddwen (Village Idiot)
mormegil (Undertaker)
Saurreg (Furrier)
the guy who be short (Scholar specialising in lycanthropic lore)
the phantom (Arrogant healer)

Healer is indeed taken. Anyway, registration will end in about 7 hours.

It turns out I may be home on Sunday after all, but I'm not going to change the timing now.

Anyway, seeing as the Seer dreams on the first night, I think it might be sensible to start with a NIGHT phase. Werewolves can also discuss plans for the next day this first NIGHT. However, seeing as all I need to start the day is the Seer's PM, this NIGHT would probably be ridiculously short...

Thoughts, anybody?

Kath

06-18-2005, 04:49 AM

May I join in or have I missed the deadline? If I can then I don't mind what I am.

Anguirel

06-18-2005, 04:53 AM

I agree with starting with a night.

Firefoot

06-18-2005, 06:23 AM

Thanks, GWBS. In that case I'll run a fruit stand.

I agree with starting with a Night; since it's only the seer that's working, though, I don't think we need to have a formal Night time. The seer could just alert TGWBS anytime after receiving his/her role, and the Day could still start on Monday. Perhaps if the roles were sent out somewhat earlier before the game start, this would also give the werewolves enough time to touch base.

the guy who be short

06-18-2005, 07:26 AM

Firefoot, that was the original plan (I was going to inform the Seer and Werewolves of their roles today at the end of registration). However, as I'm (probably) away on Sunday I don't think this would work, as it would give the wolves too much time to debate.

So: The game will start with a Night at about 6pm GMT on Monday (normal, specified time). The Night will probably be very short, as the only PM i will need will be one from the Seer, which shouldn't take very long to decide, especially if they are online when they receive their role at 4pm.

Well, that's sorted. :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-18-2005, 08:17 AM

So many players; this will be fascinating.

Oh tgwbs, just noticed your role. I think your library is going to be busy on DAY 1. :D

the guy who be short

06-18-2005, 08:30 AM

What's left of it. ;)

It's more of a small shack full of books really.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-18-2005, 10:33 AM

Honestly, I'm ecstatic that the game starts with a NIGHT. The first day is such a huge waste of bandwidth, since we are debating about nothing, there being no facts as of yet to work with. On DAY 1, you are almost guaranteed to lynch an innocent, because all you have to work with is who speaks loudest. :rolleyes:
TGWBS, I can't wait to see what kinds of fabulous deaths you compose. Our occupations should help a lot. I mean... think of Eswen's death... it would be so easy [not to mention needlessly gory] to melt her down and make candles with her, having the unsuspecting villagers walk into her pitch dark home and light one up before realizing that there is a reason the candles are blood red.

*thinks* Wow... I'm thinking it might be fun to mod one of these now. :cool:

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-18-2005, 10:54 AM

You are almost guaranteed to lynch an innocent on DAY 1 even if the game begins with a NIGHT. There are, what, 19 players in this one? And 3 of them are werewolves.

Even if real gaming begins with a day, the werewolves are still at work. Nudging the innocent villagers this way or that.

I agree that starting it with a NIGHT will be slightly more fun, but it is not likely to make any noticable difference whatsoever.

Esgallhugwen

06-18-2005, 10:59 AM

*thinks* Wow... I'm thinking it might be fun to mod one of these now.

I was thinking about that too Fea.

Make me into candles? Hm. How splendidly gory :D After all, ones occupation can cause the person to be used as a consumable resource. But we'll have to wait and see won't we, they might just dip me in a vat of wax when their done, being to lazy to hone their skills at the fine art of candlestick making.

Speaking of which, I think besides actual candle-sticks, I'd like to make little candle animals, you know for children's rooms and things of that nature.

And just think of it Fea, if your a midnight snack for the Werewolves, they may decide to paint a pretty portrait with your blood. :eek:

This will be too much fun.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-18-2005, 11:09 AM

If Zali were a seer, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be sewing her eyes shut with her own needles.The phantom would need one of his more poisonous healing concoctions to be poured secretly into his ear as he slept. Although that could ensure his coming back to speak Latin with his son...

the guy who be short

06-18-2005, 11:10 AM

Ah, you've figured out why I wanted to be Mod, I see. :D

Anyway, starting with a night has its ups and downs. The Seer only dreams about one person remember - so there's a something like 15/18 chance s/he'll pick an innocent, which wont do the village that much good.

However, the werewolves can also gather their ideas for the next day (unless the Seer is very quick, as Night 1 will end assoon as s/he PMs me) and might be able to conceive a plan for leading the villagers astray.

Honestly, I see starting with a Night as more of a help to the wolves. Oh well, you have your Shirriffs. :p

And Esgallhugwen... you have an entire vat full of molten wax?! And cultured werewolves - how do they paint with their paws? :rolleyes:

Well, recruitment is now *officially* over. Not that that means anything in real terms, of course.

Edit: Feanor, I wouldn't worry. I believe he can only return if the poisoner is his brother...

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-18-2005, 11:16 AM

If it helps you devise deaths, TGWBS, I'm a multimedia artist. I paint, I draw, I sculpt. I even plan to try my hand at bronze casting within the next year or so. ;)

And what was it that we re-named as Shirriffs? Drat and bebother these new names... I was just getting used to hunters (are they Rangers now?) and... yeah...

EDIT: We'll just have to make sure he has no brothers, or we might have a posthumous message on our hands, and wouldn't that just be reminiscent of his original idea of a letter sent to the Mod?

Anguirel

06-18-2005, 11:19 AM

Hunter=Hunter

Guardian=Ranger

Masons=Shiriffs

Seer=Seer

Cursed Villager=Cursed Villager

Wolves=Sheep's Clothing

the guy who be short

06-18-2005, 11:21 AM

Guardian => Ranger
Masons => Shirriffs.

For the easily confusable (;)): don't worry. This, and the full rules, will all be in my horrendously long first post

Edit: Ah, Anguirel got there before me. I am editting an awful lot these days...

Esgallhugwen

06-18-2005, 11:32 AM

TGWBS
And Esgallhugwen... you have an entire vat full of molten wax?! And cultured werewolves - how do they paint with their paws?

Well, um. How would they make candles?, I mean they're molds but think of all the hairs they would be pulling out of themselves, I can imagine a new fad in candle making, 'Fuzzy candles' get yours today!

I suppose (for the painting) they could use their mouths, but being part human wouldn't they still have use of their thumbs? At least the werewolves I'm thinking about. :confused:

gack.

mormegil

06-18-2005, 12:50 PM

If you're still taking ideas, I would think that having NIGHT first would be a good idea. I like the seer dreaming on the first night and I also like the werewolves being able to come up with a basic strategy and begin working together.

Lalaith

06-19-2005, 03:18 PM

I'll keep the tale of Romulus and Remus in mind...

Took me a couple of moments to figure out what you meant. Very good, Anguirel....

mormegil

06-20-2005, 08:06 AM

Just a reminder to everybody that you will want to be on invisible mode soon and remain invisible for the duration of your game.

Also TGWBS when do you intend on sending out the roles? I had an awful dream that you told somebody that they were the cursed villager :p . I was thinking ACK!!! no don't do that.

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 08:57 AM

Just now, infact, mormegil. And don't worry, the cursed villager shall remain oblivious *evil smiley*

littlemanpoet

06-20-2005, 09:59 AM

Hey tgwbs, when are you going to start the new thread and put up the rules, so I have a clue what I'm supposed to be doing?

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 10:32 AM

About 6pm. Excited yet? :P

I'd like to remind everybody that once the next game starts, no players (dead or alive) should post here, unless they have some really serious gameplay questions.

mormegil

06-20-2005, 10:35 AM

I think what should happen is that they pm you (TGWBS) and you as the moderator come on this thread and explain the question and answer without divulging the identity of the person.

Esgallhugwen

06-20-2005, 10:39 AM

I think what should happen is that they pm you (TGWBS) and you as the moderator come on this thread and explain the question and answer without divulging the identity of the person.
I agree with Mormegil.

Can't wait to get started!! :D

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 10:39 AM

Why not? Do what the morm says. :D

mormegil

06-20-2005, 10:58 AM

One final reminder that we should all be invisible for the duration of the game. That means anytime you're online just remain invisible. I see a couple of people that aren't there yet.

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 12:28 PM

When the Curséd Villager dies, their role shall not be revealed. Instead, I will merely state that an Ordinary Villager / Werewolf (whatever state the Curséd One is in at the time) has died.

People will not be automatically killed if they miss very short Days when votes are cast quickly, obviously. This only happens if the Day is close to 24 hours, or if somebody misses two middle-sized (about 12 hours) Days.

Anymore questions will be:-
1) Groaned at.
2) Looked at.
3) Agonised over.
4) Answered in a PM.
5) Answered here.

:)

Firefoot

06-20-2005, 12:36 PM

TGWBS, I said before that I'd run a fruitstand since a healer was already taken. It was at the start of some other stuff so that's probably why you missed it. :)

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 12:42 PM

*There is a dull thud as TGWBS bangs his head on his desk.*

Sorry, Firefoot. :o To a fourth edit I go!

Also:
I have been asked about my visibility. It makes no difference whether a Mod is online or not as they are not actually in the game, so I'm just going to stay online.

The Saucepan Man

06-20-2005, 01:00 PM

I have been asked about my visibility. It makes no difference whether a Mod is online or not as they are not actually in the game, so I'm just going to stay online.TGWBS, you should be in Invisible Mode too as otherwise players may see you PM'ing another player at an inopportune time.

the guy who be short

06-20-2005, 01:07 PM

Whoops.

*Turns invisible*

Thank you, SpM.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-20-2005, 01:21 PM

TGWBS, you should be in Invisible Mode too as otherwise players may see you PM'ing another player at an inopportune time.
But people can't see who he's PMing, can they? I know that when I look at the Who's Online list, I can only see that someone is "Private Messaging", but that's it. Or is that a Mod/Admin perk?

The Saucepan Man

06-20-2005, 05:26 PM

But people can't see who he's PMing, can they?You're right. My mistake. It is only Admins who can see who people are PM'ing. Nevetheless, it is still better that the moderator stays in invisible mode too, since it is possible that his or her PM'ing activities could give rise to suspicion.

the phantom

06-20-2005, 05:52 PM

Can we call the seer "The Malbeth", call the ranger "the hunter" again, allow the wolves and shirriffs to pm all the time, call the shirriffs "the guys who be secret", have a scribe character, allow people to strongly hint at but not mention other games, have a rule that automatically kills people who don't post every ten minutes, and outlaw the invisibility mode so we can see who is pming and when?

Oh, and I also think that after someone is killed they should come on this thread and post something that would affect the game. That would be fun.

Let's go ahead and make all those changes before the current game gets rolling- go ahead and repost all the rules, TGWBS, and announce that all the explanations given up until now no longer stand so everyone needs to ask their questions again.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-20-2005, 06:05 PM

Oh, and I also think that after someone is killed they should come on this thread and post something that would effect the game. That would be fun.
I would also be a load of fun if they posted something that would affect the game. ;) :p

the phantom

06-20-2005, 06:15 PM

I really don't care.

But I suppose I can change it if it bothers you.

You do realize that I wouldn't have made an edit for anyone else?

And you'd better not answer me back. We've nearly been banned from being in a game together and I'm sure the two of us cluttering up this thread will make Saucy or someone pull the trigger.

The Saucepan Man

06-20-2005, 07:17 PM

... and I'm sure the two of us cluttering up this thread will make Saucy or someone pull the triggerConsider my finger to be well and truly on the trigger ...

While a game is in progress, there should be very little reason for anyone to post on this thread other than the game moderator posting responses to sensible PMs seeking clarification.

Capiche?

The Saucepan Man

06-26-2005, 01:50 PM

A small request.

I will be away travelling for most of this week - returning on Thursday night (hence my non-participation in the current game).

If recruiting for the next game commences while I am away but the game will not start until Thursday night or later, please count me in. :)

Thanks

Mithalwen

06-26-2005, 02:10 PM

Although I yielded the field to Eomer, I am still keen to moderate a game if the BW permits, however you migh want to see what I have planned before you commit to it since I am not into all this democracy re deciding rules - and I am unaminous in that :D

Mithalwen

06-26-2005, 02:10 PM

Although I yielded the field to Eomer, I am still keen to moderate a game if the BW permits, however you might want to see what I have planned before you commit to it since I am not into all this democracy re deciding rules - and I am unaminous in that :D... But I will try to be a thinking tyrant....

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-26-2005, 02:12 PM

I'd like to express public interest in moderating one of the games as well. Not necessarily the next, as I think Mith would do a fantastic job, but maybe the one after.

Firefoot

06-26-2005, 02:25 PM

I'd like to moderate a game sometime as well... it would have to be before September, though, as I'd be too busy. But it seems that if I don't express interest now the wait would get too long. ;) :cool:

Gil-Galad

06-26-2005, 03:12 PM

hmmm... maybe i can get involved? i can make a job or yo ucan give me one, what ever...(yes i can be a townsfolk...maybe sell Shrubbery...)

the guy who be short

06-26-2005, 03:28 PM

What's this? Recruitment for the next game... with nine villagers still alive? You people must be desperate for your next fix!

Ahem. Count me in. I need my Wolfy...

The Saucepan Man

06-26-2005, 06:06 PM

What's this? Recruitment for the next game... with nine villagers still alive?Well, I was only putting my bid in because I will be away with limited internet access for the next four days.

But it has just occurred to me that I will only be back for a week before going away again on holiday for two weeks, so I may have to sit the next few games out. :(

Looks like Mithalwen will be moderating the next game, followed by Fea and then Firefoot (or should that be footie :p ;) ).

Gil-Galad

06-26-2005, 06:25 PM

K i'll be a French Undertaker, mainly cause i want to spurt insults once and awhile... well if i can't be french i'll just be the undertaker then...

Mithalwen

06-27-2005, 06:15 AM

As I stated to SPM , IF I am moderating - it is going to be a bit different -mainly because I want to see how things will go by changing / reinstating certain factors - so I will post HOW it is going to be and then you join if you wish to play under those terms.

I don't want people signing up and then whining cos they don't like being used as labrats... ;) Also with 9 living - you are jumping the gun.

Therfore wait and see.

BTW I made the error of actually following instructions and PMing the BW while Eomer launched a public campaign ;) lol...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-27-2005, 08:22 AM

I'm such a heel...

Actually I did PM the Barrow-wight last time, it's just that his internet access was irregular at the time and he couldn't respond quickly. Unwilling to lose the chance, I made it public.

I know Mith will do a brilliant job. By the way, this Brit stranglehold on the Werewolf game is reminding me of the Scottish stranglehold on Westminister. :smokin:

PS: Mith, ignore my last PM: 'twas belated, I see.

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-27-2005, 10:24 AM

mormegil

06-27-2005, 10:30 AM

With such an interest in these games I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps it might not make sense to run more than one game at a time. I don't know about anyone else but the prospect of a 20-person village seems a bit monstrous. I found keeping up with a 14 person village taxing enough. More games run on more modest scales will also allow more people to moderate (me too! me too!) and might even allow more variability among the games.

At any rate, that's my tuppence.

I've been thinking along the same lines. If there is suffiicient interest I say we have a go at two games at once. I myself have no interest in moderating a game, but would rather play.

Mithalwen

06-27-2005, 10:38 AM

Ideally I will have 12 players (excluding me).

Gil-Galad

06-27-2005, 12:05 PM

I'm confused...so am i in it or not?

Kuruharan

06-27-2005, 01:43 PM

With such an interest in these games I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps it might not make sense to run more than one game at a time. I don't know about anyone else but the prospect of a 20-person village seems a bit monstrous. I found keeping up with a 14 person village taxing enough. More games run on more modest scales will also allow more people to moderate (me too! me too!) and might even allow more variability among the games.

At any rate, that's my tuppence.

Shouldn't we wait until The Barrow-Wight approves this before we start making plans?

(Eru forbid that we actually wait until the current game is over before we start planning the next one. :rolleyes: )

Holbytlass

06-27-2005, 03:07 PM

(Eru forbid that we actually wait until the current game is over before we start planning the next one. :rolleyes: )

LOL- But personally, I don't think there is any harm in putting out ideas.
For instance, IF The Barrow-wight approves two games, I suggest trimming them down to 12 hours. With the games starting one at ?o'clock A.M. and the other 12 hours later at P.M. . That way games go a little quicker and one can choose which fits their schedule better. Anyway, just a thought. And I want to be one of Mithalwen's labrats!! :D

EDIT: Okay, I just realized this will only work for the first time, since the two games might have different number of players, kill off people sooner than the other village and so forth....

Kuruharan

06-27-2005, 04:08 PM

But personally, I don't think there is any harm in putting out ideas.

Yeah, but might it be just a little bit rude, since people who are enrolled in the current game are not supposed to be posting in this thread, for the rest of us to be talking over their heads like this?

Holbytlass

06-27-2005, 05:30 PM

Ah, forgot about that one, me good dwarve. My apologies. :( Always forgetting something! :D

Mithalwen

06-28-2005, 06:13 AM

I'm confused...so am i in it or not?

If I am permitted to moderate, I will post my game proposal and if you are agreable you may enlist.

Since I have not received official clearance, and the current game is still going apace... recruitment is premature.

I propose keeping the 24 hr system for my own convenience but hope by having a small number of COMMITTED players the game will move fast.

SO really I only want for this game people who are going to be available to post for the expected timespan of the game. SO I will take a look at the state of play and calculate arealistic timescale.

SpM only posted becasue he knew he would be away.
Since he is likely to be back before I make my recruitment drive, I will say now that as faras I am concerned (and to be brutally honest - if I am the mod...it is my opinion that counts!!!) - recruiting has not started... so no one is yet in :D

Gil-Galad

06-29-2005, 03:21 PM

So you'll let me know when i can get into the game... it seems like alot of fun and i wouldn't mind being apart of it

Mithalwen

06-30-2005, 06:01 AM

Apart may be all to true... I am awaiting confirmation from the powers that be and then ...we will be ready to roll ...... :D It will be a little different ....

update.....

Well WW4 has ended witha victory for the villagers. I have not received confirmation for the go ahead yet. However I will be ready ..... :D

Kuruharan

06-30-2005, 07:20 AM

Are you planning on allowing any sort of discussion on possible rule changes at all?

Cailín

06-30-2005, 08:09 AM

I read along with the entire last game and you play this game intense! Way better than some of the other forums I visit every once in a while.

Where do I sign up? ;)

mormegil

06-30-2005, 08:33 AM

I was wondering how everybody felt about the wolves inability to communicate during the DAY time hours? Obviously it helped the villagers but does anybody feel that it limited their ability too much?

the guy who be short

06-30-2005, 08:36 AM

I presumed that was how it was played last game too. Certainly it makes much more sense (it's more realistic, if you can call a game involving werewolves realistic).

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-30-2005, 08:44 AM

Obviously it helped the villagers but does anybody feel that it limited their ability too much? I would think, that since the werewolves know who each other are, that they could look for clues in the posts themselves. Since other people wouldn't necessarily pick up on a lot of hints being given off (*cough*), that they would be fairly safe to do so, and it would allow for 24 hour communication. At least... that's what I'd be doing.

Kuruharan

06-30-2005, 08:51 AM

One issue I feel needs to be addressed is the number of times somebody can announce that they are going to be absent from the game. I think there should be a cap on the number of times this can be done. I think one time is reasonable. If you are going to be gone more than that you should run the risk of falling foul of the automatic lynching rule.

If somebody is not going to be available a bunch, then they should not enroll in the first place (as I believe has been said a number of times before). It destabilizes the game.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-30-2005, 09:02 AM

The trouble with that, Kuru, is that sometimes DAYs run unexpectedly short, which messes up the entire time schedule. With Friday, I was gone the entire day, and that was entirely unavoidable. The reason that I was absent most of Saturday is because DAY started in the afternoon, not the morning, and I was only home for the morning. TGWBS knew I was around because I was PMing him with my kill-lists, but nobody else did, because I couldn't be on for the DAY hours. Sunday was similar, although I did sneak in once or twice. If you can't guarantee the exact hours of the DAY and NIGHT, then it's hard to guarantee your ability to be there at the appropriate times. Hence some rushed PMs going something like "Oh shoot... I have to leave and DAY just started. Kill LMP if I die. Bye."

Firefoot

06-30-2005, 09:06 AM

I agree with Kuru. In a game where deductions are made based on what people say, how they react, etc., etc., the participants need to be available for the majority of the time. If you aren't there, people are either voting for you because you aren't there or aren't voting for you because there is no evidence. That's not how it's supposed to work.

I don't think people should be allowed to miss more than a day, maybe two.

I like the fact that the werewolves can't communicate during the day, at least at this point. If it starts to get to a point when the werewolves just aren't winning any more, maybe that option will need to be re-enabled. But for now, I think it works well. If the werewolves can talk during the day, it gives them an excellent opportunity to shift their strategy and the game to their advantage (speaking from experience).

Kuruharan

06-30-2005, 09:07 AM

With Friday, I was gone the entire day, and that was entirely unavoidable.

I will refrain from making the obvious reply to that.

sometimes DAYs run unexpectedly short, which messes up the entire time schedule.

-and-

If you can't guarantee the exact hours of the DAY and NIGHT, then it's hard to guarantee your ability to be there at the appropriate times.

That is another thing I was thinking about mentioning. I realize there is a desire to hurry things along, but considering all the bother that people (including the moderators) have been having with times, shouldn't there just be one consistent schedule of when the DAYS and NIGHTS will begin and get rid of this shuffling the times along.

littlemanpoet

06-30-2005, 09:29 AM

I was wondering how everybody felt about the wolves inability to communicate during the DAY time hours? Obviously it helped the villagers but does anybody feel that it limited their ability too much?

As a matter of fact, Esgal's and Hookbill's PMing behavior on the first NIGHT boded ill for our tenure as werewolves. We hamstrung ourselves in having almost no communication. I waited eleven hours for the first response to my initial pm. Frustrating.

I really have no problem with not being able to PM during the day, as that makes the game challenging. But if someone cannot be involved on a daily basis, and knows it, and is selected to be a wolf, that person should remove voluntarily from that game.

Feanor of the Peredhil

06-30-2005, 09:57 AM

With Friday, I was gone the entire day, and that was entirely unavoidable.
I will refrain from making the obvious reply to that.
I know. But I assumed that would be the only DAY that I would miss, and so figured that why miss out on a game when, with the exception of one day, I'll be there the whole time. If I had realized I would be so hit-or-miss for those three days of playing, I'd have definately thought twice about joining up for this round.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

06-30-2005, 12:02 PM

I don't have a problem with Werewolves and Shirrifs PMing DAY and NIGHT whenever they want.

As for participation, I do agree that you should be prepared to be on the internet a fair bit. Maybe I'm just being hard-to-please because internet access is so easy for me but dammit! I like a bit of discussion! And this will be essential in a game with only 12 players.

Is it at all likely that we might have 24 interested players this time, thus allowing us to play two parallel games?

Mithalwen

06-30-2005, 12:06 PM

Well having received clearance and made a few decisions I will shortly set up a Recruitment / Noticeboard thread for the next game..... please wait and read and sign up there if you are prepared to commit ........ :D

dancing spawn of ungoliant

06-30-2005, 12:42 PM

I'm not sure wether I like the idea of two villages being attacked at the same time. Of course it will allow more players to participate but I'm afraid that it'll lessen the enthusiasm and eagerness to play in the future. If everyone gets to play right away as many times as they want, the game might lose it's excitement.

Now that there has been only one village every participant has (naturally) been really closely involved in the game but also those who have not been playing at the time have closely followed the life of the village. I wonder if two villages can create such a nice atmosphere of community as these previous games have created. Or maybe I just ought to stop whining. A village or two, I'd like to play again anyway. ;)

littlemanpoet

06-30-2005, 01:17 PM

I also think it should be kept to one village at a time. I also think the 24 hours ought to be locked in to a consistent, predictable set that works for most time zones from which players and mod are active.

I'd like to recommend that some mod (maybe Mithalwen) receive PMs from players in which the players say what they're interested in doing, and then let the mod shuffle to fit the most desires. That way those who don't feel up to giftedness or werewolvishness can start at their level of comfort. I was definitely outside mine! I won't be in the next game. We'll see about future ones.

Kuruharan

06-30-2005, 01:37 PM

I'd like to recommend that some mod (maybe Mithalwen) receive PMs from players in which the players say what they're interested in doing, and then let the mod shuffle to fit the most desires. That way those who don't feel up to giftedness or werewolvishness can start at their level of comfort.

But that could deaden variety and make the game predictable. Part of the fun of playing the game is playing outside your usual box. The other part of the fun is to try to deduce who are the werewolves. Without random selection the choices become painfully predictable.

littlemanpoet

06-30-2005, 01:51 PM

Not so. I'm sure that more than three gamers would say they're interested in being werewolves, more than two shirriffs, more than one ranger, hunter, and seer. And by doing it all via PM, only the moderator and the person assigned the role would know what s/he is (and partners in cases of ww and sf).

Kuruharan

06-30-2005, 01:55 PM

But that still takes too much from trying to guess from the normal personalities of people. If this is done then we are going to have all sorts of problems with the same people getting hung on the first couple of DAYS over and over again, and Eru knows we have enough problems with people being suspected from prior games already.

:eek: *GASP* Dirty little secret that nobody is supposed to admit to has just been exposed... ;)

Believe me, random selection is the way.

Lalaith

06-30-2005, 04:28 PM

Lmp, you're doing yourself down - honestly, you were a werewolf natural. :smokin:
For various reasons (size of game, Esgal's disappearance) you had a really tough job and you did it well. I know what you mean, I'd *hate* to be a wolf, I'm really bad at lying, but I think Kuruharan is right, I mean, if roles were elective, we'd just be suspecting phantom every time, right?

littlemanpoet

06-30-2005, 04:55 PM

Well thanks, Lal. :)

Sometimes you have to get outside your comfort zone to really experience life and learn new things, right? Even if it is incredibly draining :eek:

Uh oh, LMP's delving into sophistry! I thought that was just an act for the game!

Sorry, can't help it. I guess it comes naturally. :p

Firefoot

06-30-2005, 05:49 PM

I definitely think that the roles should be random, for the same reasons as Kuru stated. Besides, I doubt many people would ask to play an ordinary villager (I sure wouldn't ;) ).

And I would say that one village at a time is preferable.

And this is a completely random thought that occurred to me earlier today. By taking the initials of Werewolf (WW) and adding a Roman Numeral, you get the same thing as the abbreviation for World War (insert apropriate number). :eek:

Lalaith

07-01-2005, 03:26 AM

What you say about the comfort zone is interesting, lmp. The exciting thing about werewolf is that unless you are a rather unusual personality type, the whole thing is outside the comfort zone. Even if you are just an ordinary villager. I don't tend, in RL, to go around not trusting anyone around me and doubting everything they say, and to have others do the same to me. I found it surprisingly stressful, psychologically, to put myself in that mindset. But I'm sure it was good for me, really.... :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-02-2005, 07:18 AM

Is anyone else not too fond of the multiple lynchings?

In The Barrow-wight's original game he didn't have them. In Werewolf IV the villagers won the game by utilising the rule to their advantage: they killed three villagers in one go, confident that the wolf would be among those three.

Does anyone else think that this makes the game less fun? That only one person should die in any one day?

If there was some mathematical probability of catching all three wolves on the first day by killing all but one of the villagers, would you do it? That would be a horrible way to play the game.

mormegil

07-02-2005, 07:27 AM

Eomer I would agree with you on this one. I can see that it's a strategy that works but somewhat ruins the enjoyement of the game. If anyone were to try and step in and break the tie they would be branded a wolf, whether they are one or no.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-02-2005, 10:50 AM

As a mod (an endeavor that will/won't be officially okayed in about a week), I would strongly discourage multiple lynchings (with the exception of the non-participation rule, and with extremely boring deaths all around for multiples that die). Numerical logic takes away much of the fun of hovering around for hours wondering if your intuition failed you miserably. Another change is that there will be set hours for DAY and NIGHT (because I don't know about you, but the mod needs to know when she has to be in front of a computer). Other than that, we'd play by the same rules as TGWBS.

the guy who be short

07-02-2005, 10:57 AM

Fea, word of advice. People often leave voting extremely late, so if you have set times, you'll need to incorporate writing-time into this. For long deaths, writing could even take half an hour. So make sure you fit that in.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-02-2005, 11:30 AM

Thanks TGWBS. Though I haven't got anything set in stone yet, I do need to have the times between 8:30 AM EST and 9:30 PM. I was thinking of 24 hour days and 12 hour nights, but if that doesn't work for the majority, it can be tweaked. It would go something like DAY 1 starting at 8:30 AM and ending at 8:30 AM the next RL day, with NIGHT ending at 8:30 PM that night. And I can have death outlines written in advance, to be filled in when the time comes. Say Feanor of the Peredhil was playing, and she's chosen the role of the village quilter. I may decide to silence her permanently by way of sufficating her with a large amount of cotten (to soften the screams from her otherwise loud mouth), stitching her mouth shut, and leaving her otherwise unharmed body hung, much like a tapestry, upon a wall. The only things to fill in would be how she died, when she died, and what her Role was. That sort of thing.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-02-2005, 11:45 AM

It's good to know I'm not alone. O, and Fea if......I mean..... when you get to moderate Werewolf VI, don't forget your favourite Scot. ;) I hope Saucepan Man can play in that game too. I'd like to battle words with that one!

(Man, how pathetic is that? Stealing a place in VI when V hasn't even started!) :D

I'm very intrigued by Mithalwen's game; she has taken the bold step of really shaking things up a bit. Credit to her, I say. Although, I also hold that a game played by the original rules would still thrill me. I guess I'm easily amused.

The Saucepan Man

07-02-2005, 11:50 AM

The multiple lynching strategy will only be viable when there is at least one proven innocent. But this is quite likely to be the case in any game where the Seer survives into the second day at least and is able to make the import of his or her dreams apparent.

Accordingly, although it was my idea, I agree that it will be better to revert to one lynching per day. I suppose that the best way to do this, where one or more villagers are tied, is for the moderator to randomly select one of the tied villagers to be lynched.

It's a shame, though, as I rather liked the element of one or two villagers hanging around towards the end of the day to either break or force a tie. It could be quite revealing.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-02-2005, 12:03 PM

the moderator to randomly select one of the tied villagers to be lynched.Ah, random selection. That's where you go on AIM, pick somebody who has no idea what you're talking about, and say "Dude, A, or B?" and so somebody dies. Or of course there are coins to flip, straws to pull, and eenies to meeny.

It's a shame, though, as I rather liked the element of one or two villagers hanging around towards the end of the day to either break or force a tie. It could be quite revealing.Quite frankly, I like the idea also. Which is why I've taken part in a scheme where we forced a tie. But I would hate to see the Seer dream of one innocent, and have everyone circle-vote so that everyone dies, and have the village win by default.

littlemanpoet

07-02-2005, 02:52 PM

I haven't checked yet, so I may be all wet, but if Mithalwen is going with (1) only 12 villagerse, (2) 5 gifted innocents, and (3) multiple lynchings, I'll be interested to see how long the werewolves last. They won't win. You see, that means there's 9 innocents villagers, 5 gifted and 4 ungifted; gifted outnumber ungifted. That's already advantage to the villagers. Throw in multiple lynchings and it's just a matter of time before the werewolves are found out. Check out the odds for yourselves.

the guy who be short

07-02-2005, 03:04 PM

lmp, Mith isn't having multiple lynchings.

Anywho, I think in smaller games multiple lynchings don't work, but they could work in larger games. I'd dislike phantom-style number manipulation though. ;)

Oddwen

07-02-2005, 05:13 PM

LMP - there are only four Gifteds. Seer, Hunter and Guardian are indelibly good, but the Mythomaniac could end up as good or evil. Which = Cool.

the phantom

07-02-2005, 05:36 PM

But I would hate to see the Seer dream of one innocent, and have everyone circle-vote so that everyone dies, and have the village win by default.
It can't work like that. It's not that simple.

For one thing, the person the seer declared innocent is not a proven innocent until the seer dies, so no one (including me) would be willing to fully trust that someone is innocent until the seer dies.

For another thing, it only takes one wolf to step out of line and keep the multiple lynching from occuring, therefore the other wolves would remain hidden and the game would continue.

The circular voting technique should only catch one wolf per day if the wolves play correctly. Therefore, if there are not enough proven innocents to last for three days worth of voting, the circular voting technique is not an end all strategy.
Is anyone else not too fond of the multiple lynchings?
Does anyone else think that this makes the game less fun?
Numerical logic takes away much of the fun
I'd dislike phantom-style number manipulation though.
So it appears that everyone wants to make brains as small a factor as possible. :rolleyes:

Do we really want to do that- to make the games more... stupid? But then, I suppose many people equate stupid with fun, so I guess I can understand the reasoning, though I find it revolting.

Also, adding a rule that keeps the villagers from utilizing their superior numbers as well as the dreams of the seer is a really bad idea. Population advantage and seer dreams are by far and away the largest assets a village has, and so ruling out a strategy based upon these advantages is sort of like adding an extra werewolf to the game.

Is everyone wanting to help the wolves or something? Why? Because the villagers finally won a game? Are we wanting to return to the days of endless werewolf domination?

Or does everyone just hate strategy, and would prefer to run around like a headless chicken and make random accusations and lynch people because you, for some unknown reason, think they are guilty? And at the end do you want to shake the werewolves' hands and congratulate them on winning for the tenth straight time? And then you will tell everyone "Well, we could have won that game by employing a good strategy, but I'm glad we didn't, because ten pages of mindless yammering is way way better than thinking and such!"

Just in case my hints haven't been strong enough, I believe that multiple lynchings are a good thing.

(this rant was sponsored by the phantom inc, the opinions expressed are very true but not necessarily the opinions of all of phantom's friends and associates, make sure and watch next week's episode during which phantom will express his opinions on strategic Candyland gameplay)
The exciting thing about werewolf is that unless you are a rather unusual personality type, the whole thing is outside the comfort zone.
Well, I suppose that means that I am unusual. :p